'84 crossfire to carburator conversion

Hello All Again,

After doing tremendous research I think the conversion is not very difficult
as long as certain things are compromised. Please allow me to run these
things by everyone for comment.

1. Emissions - 1984 was a very early stage of emission control and the
components can be easily bypassed or disconnected completely and be similiar
to the '79 'vette, as strictly a toy car for me I feel the emmissions issue
is non existant as I dirve the car less than 5000/yrs tops and there are no
emision controls where I live and if I must bypass those laws it can be done
by either reregistering th ecar as a street rod or an antique.

2. Intake and Carb - Edelbrock has a combination that will fit under the
hood and not force outside body alterations,so on the street it is
invisible.

3.Valuation - the value of an '84 C4 with 128,000 miles is very limited as
it now stands probably the maximum value is less than $5,000 a very
inexpensive toy for a play car. With the conversion I know I could sell it
for around $3500.00 a $1,500 loss but much less than a new toy.

4. Distributor - this is kinda up in the air some say it has to be replaced
with a vac advance distributaor and some say t does not, i will have to try
the original first and if it don't work then replace it.

5. The biggest issue is the transmission with the kickdown, most
information is split 50/50 but it appears the the computer does not control
the transmission and is controlled by a cable that may have to custom made
but certainly doable I think.

6. Digital dash - the digital (as another very attempt) will still be
controlled by the ECM.

The total expenditures from Jegs (with the exception of the distributator
and transmission) is less that $500.00

Please give me any comments or knowledge from your experiences.

Thanks in advance.

Art
'84 red/red
soon to be carburated

Art wrote:
> Hello All Again,
>
> After doing tremendous research I think the conversion is not very difficult
> as long as certain things are compromised. Please allow me to run these
> things by everyone for comment.
>
> 1. Emissions - 1984 was a very early stage of emission control and the
> components can be easily bypassed or disconnected completely and be similiar
> to the '79 'vette, as strictly a toy car for me I feel the emmissions issue
> is non existant as I dirve the car less than 5000/yrs tops and there are no
> emision controls where I live and if I must bypass those laws it can be done
> by either reregistering th ecar as a street rod or an antique.
>
> 2. Intake and Carb - Edelbrock has a combination that will fit under the
> hood and not force outside body alterations,so on the street it is
> invisible.
>
> 3.Valuation - the value of an '84 C4 with 128,000 miles is very limited as
> it now stands probably the maximum value is less than $5,000 a very
> inexpensive toy for a play car. With the conversion I know I could sell it
> for around $3500.00 a $1,500 loss but much less than a new toy.
>
> 4. Distributor - this is kinda up in the air some say it has to be replaced
> with a vac advance distributaor and some say t does not, i will have to try
> the original first and if it don't work then replace it.
>
> 5. The biggest issue is the transmission with the kickdown, most
> information is split 50/50 but it appears the the computer does not control
> the transmission and is controlled by a cable that may have to custom made
> but certainly doable I think.
>
> 6. Digital dash - the digital (as another very attempt) will still be
> controlled by the ECM.
>
> The total expenditures from Jegs (with the exception of the distributator
> and transmission) is less that $500.00
>
> Please give me any comments or knowledge from your experiences.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Art
> '84 red/red
> soon to be carburated
>
>
Why are you so hell-bent on spending a lot of money ruining this car
when all
you have to do is replace or repair your old intake manifold?

On Dec 17, 10:53 am, "Art" > wrote:
>
> 1. Emissions - 1984 was a very early stage of emission control and the
> components can be easily bypassed or disconnected completely and be similiar
> to the '79 'vette, as strictly a toy car for me I feel the emmissions issue
> is non existant as I dirve the car less than 5000/yrs tops and there are no
> emision controls where I live and if I must bypass those laws it can be done
> by either reregistering th ecar as a street rod or an antique.
>

You'll be dumping more hydrocarbons into the catalytic converter than
it was designed for. Be prepared for the cat to melt down or set
grass on fire. You might have to gut it, which will be yet another
crime committed.

> 2. Intake and Carb - Edelbrock has a combination that will fit under the
> hood and not force outside body alterations,so on the street it is
> invisible.
>

What about the air cleaner? Have a look at the air intake on a 5.2L
Jeep Grand Cherokee. It looks like it would fit onto a 4bbl carb and
might connect to the original air cleaner with some adaptation.

> 3.Valuation - the value of an '84 C4 with 128,000 miles is very limited as
> it now stands probably the maximum value is less than $5,000 a very
> inexpensive toy for a play car. With the conversion I know I could sell it
> for around $3500.00 a $1,500 loss but much less than a new toy.
>

It'll be a parts car when you're finished with it.

> 4. Distributor - this is kinda up in the air some say it has to be replaced
> with a vac advance distributaor and some say t does not, i will have to try
> the original first and if it don't work then replace it.
>

The HEI distributor will spark the plugs if you hook up the power wire
and nothing else. That doesn't mean it's working properly. It will
function in a backup mode with no mechanical or vacuum advance. So
yes, it will work and it won't work. Spend the $50 at a junkyard and
get an HEI off an old pickup truck or something. It'll look just like
the one you have but will have a vacuum solenoid.

> 5. The biggest issue is the transmission with the kickdown, most
> information is split 50/50 but it appears the the computer does not control
> the transmission and is controlled by a cable that may have to custom made
> but certainly doable I think.
>

Talk to Summit Racing. They'll probably have a cable and bracket to
handle the TV cable. Oh, it's not a kickdown cable. It's a "throttle
valve" cable. It handles shift points, shift firmness, and kickdown.
If you drive with the cable missing or unadjusted, the transmission
will burn up in minutes (learned this the hard way).

Summit also sells a controller for the torque converter lockup.

> 6. Digital dash - the digital (as another very attempt) will still be
> controlled by the ECM.
>

Someone responded to this in your last post.

> The total expenditures from Jegs (with the exception of the distributator
> and transmission) is less that $500.00
>

$500 for parts, plus $1500 (?) depreciation. Add the TV cable, TCC
controller, fuel pressure regulator, misc hardware.

> Please give me any comments or knowledge from your experiences.
>

It's your own car. Enjoy. Just please don't ever buy a ZR1.

"Art" > wrote in message
et...
> Hello All Again,
>
> After doing tremendous research I think the conversion is not very
> difficult
> as long as certain things are compromised. Please allow me to run these
> things by everyone for comment.
>
> 1. Emissions - 1984 was a very early stage of emission control and the
> components can be easily bypassed or disconnected completely and be
> similiar
> to the '79 'vette, as strictly a toy car for me I feel the emmissions
> issue
> is non existant as I dirve the car less than 5000/yrs tops and there are
> no
> emision controls where I live and if I must bypass those laws it can be
> done
> by either reregistering th ecar as a street rod or an antique.


In my state you would drive it ZERO miles, legally anyway, because you could
not pas the emissions inspection, and could not have a legally licensed car.
periods. So your resale value will flush right down the toilet with this
backward modification.


>
> 2. Intake and Carb - Edelbrock has a combination that will fit under the
> hood and not force outside body alterations,so on the street it is
> invisible.

Intake and carburetor verses crossfire injection. Don't have enough time to
address the all of reasons why not to do this huge step backwards here and
now...
Sufise it to say TWO HUGE THUMBS DOWN ON THE WHOLE IDEA!


>
> 3.Valuation - the value of an '84 C4 with 128,000 miles is very limited as
> it now stands probably the maximum value is less than $5,000 a very
> inexpensive toy for a play car. With the conversion I know I could sell
> it
> for around $3500.00 a $1,500 loss but much less than a new toy.


Whatever the value, it will be MUCH LOWER with you backwards modification to
a carburetor. This drop in value doesn't even address that your pool of
prospective buyers will be reduced to only the people who could pass their
required emissions inspection and get it licensed. Many states, make that
most states today will not pass or license this car after your backwards
modification.


>
> 4. Distributor - this is kinda up in the air some say it has to be
> replaced
> with a vac advance distributaor and some say t does not, i will have to
> try
> the original first and if it don't work then replace it.
>
> 5. The biggest issue is the transmission with the kickdown, most
> information is split 50/50 but it appears the the computer does not
> control
> the transmission and is controlled by a cable that may have to custom made
> but certainly doable I think.
>
> 6. Digital dash - the digital (as another very attempt) will still be
> controlled by the ECM.
>
> The total expenditures from Jegs (with the exception of the distributator
> and transmission) is less that $500.00

So you have stated that you are already upside down by $1500 on this car,
and you want to nearly double that (not counting your time)? Wow, who could
honestly suggest that this is a good idea?


>
> Please give me any comments or knowledge from your experiences.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Art
> '84 red/red
> soon to be carburated


FYI:
I have done three (pre electronic fuel injection) carburetor to EFI
conversion, and would NEVER suggest, anyone do that, let alone the backwards
modification to a carburetor.

Good luck with your project, I would be willing to bet that by 2 years after
your conversion is COMPLETE, you will be more than willing to admit that it
WAS NOT a good idea.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:53:54 GMT, "Art" > wrote:

>Hello All Again,
>
>After doing tremendous research I think the conversion is not very difficult
>as long as certain things are compromised. Please allow me to run these
>things by everyone for comment.
>
>1. Emissions - 1984 was a very early stage of emission control and the
>components can be easily bypassed or disconnected completely and be similiar
>to the '79 'vette, as strictly a toy car for me I feel the emmissions issue
>is non existant as I dirve the car less than 5000/yrs tops and there are no
>emision controls where I live and if I must bypass those laws it can be done
>by either reregistering th ecar as a street rod or an antique.
>
>2. Intake and Carb - Edelbrock has a combination that will fit under the
>hood and not force outside body alterations,so on the street it is
>invisible.
>
>3.Valuation - the value of an '84 C4 with 128,000 miles is very limited as
>it now stands probably the maximum value is less than $5,000 a very
>inexpensive toy for a play car. With the conversion I know I could sell it
>for around $3500.00 a $1,500 loss but much less than a new toy.
>
>4. Distributor - this is kinda up in the air some say it has to be replaced
>with a vac advance distributaor and some say t does not, i will have to try
>the original first and if it don't work then replace it.
>
>5. The biggest issue is the transmission with the kickdown, most
>information is split 50/50 but it appears the the computer does not control
>the transmission and is controlled by a cable that may have to custom made
>but certainly doable I think.
>
>6. Digital dash - the digital (as another very attempt) will still be
>controlled by the ECM.
>
>The total expenditures from Jegs (with the exception of the distributator
>and transmission) is less that $500.00
>
>Please give me any comments or knowledge from your experiences.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Art
>'84 red/red
>soon to be carburated
>


(1) who cares about the value of the car. It's your car do what you
will.
If is of value to you to keep it stock then get it fixed. If you want
to hot rod it or modify it, then do so. You can post a simple
question and you'll always get different answers. If you live in an
emissions strict state then it has to matter to you in order to get it
to pass. Otherwise its your car.

(2) I guarantee you that there are a number of manifold and carb
setups
that will fit under the hood. I'm sure a tune port setup would fit
under the hood too.

(3) the Value is in your eyes....

(4) If you go with a carb setup then you don't use an electronically
controlled distributor (ECM controlled).

(5) I'm sure a 1984 car uses a TV / kick down cable for trans
control.
this is easily modified to work on any number of combinations. You
need to start looking at some hot rod magazines, online resources. Its
very common to swap out 700R4 transmissions into old cars ... IF you
are going to run a carb setup for fuel then you stay with a 700R4
transmission. This is not a big issue at all, most any shop can get
something to work here. I suspect that a TV cable out of a 92K1500
would almost work fine.

(6) I think the dash could be the biggest issue if its ECM controlled,
but in 1984 there were very few cars that had any type of ECM control
much less control over the dash. This should be very easy to call
and find out about, as there are any number of shops that just do
corvette work. I just don't think that in 1984 the ECM controlled
very much at all, beyond maybe timing, fuel to some degree, and may
have read engine temp and or O2 level to adjust for fuel.


Get over the hurdle and go buy the shop manuals for your car. Make
some phone calls, ask around where you live.

A 79 Corvette would have a carb and distributor setup you could
replicate. A TV cable for your transmission would be easy to do.
You might make some real gains in power by going with a tuned port
setup, but that's your call.

Once again your project cars value is what it worth to you. IF you
have fun with it and it serves your interest then who cars what other
do. There are plenty of people who $hit-canned the early fuel
injection crap and went with a carb setup on various GM cars, because
a number of them plain sucked. Now with hindsight its known that the
tuned ports are good performers, and not to hard to setup, or even
entire engine swaps...LT1 for an example would be great candidate for
a vette. Most any of the 5.7 engines out of Z-28 or trans-am would
also be good (fuel injected).

If that were my car, my only two concerns would be. (1) can I pass
emissions if required (2) what kind of crap would I have to deal with
to get the dash to work.

Outside of that everything else is just how
you want to proceed. Either old school with a carb, or something new
with a modern fuel injection setup.
-----------
Elbert

Thank You, that is my sentiments exactly, with only driving this car less
than 5k/yr max it is a fun toy like a '32 roadster with a 350, the intake
and carb combination is street legal in all 50 states, the catalytic
converters were off this car when I bought it 7 years ago, if this were a
day driver I might feel different, to be slammed about emissions when I look
at the trucks on the interstate smoking so black for thousands of miles each
day. To try to sell this car for even near what I paid for it is
impossible. But to take the top out on a Saturday morning and drive it to
the golf course is what toys are for.

Thanks
"Elbert" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:53:54 GMT, "Art" > wrote:
>
> >Hello All Again,
> >
> >After doing tremendous research I think the conversion is not very
difficult
> >as long as certain things are compromised. Please allow me to run these
> >things by everyone for comment.
> >
> >1. Emissions - 1984 was a very early stage of emission control and the
> >components can be easily bypassed or disconnected completely and be
similiar
> >to the '79 'vette, as strictly a toy car for me I feel the emmissions
issue
> >is non existant as I dirve the car less than 5000/yrs tops and there are
no
> >emision controls where I live and if I must bypass those laws it can be
done
> >by either reregistering th ecar as a street rod or an antique.
> >
> >2. Intake and Carb - Edelbrock has a combination that will fit under the
> >hood and not force outside body alterations,so on the street it is
> >invisible.
> >
> >3.Valuation - the value of an '84 C4 with 128,000 miles is very limited
as
> >it now stands probably the maximum value is less than $5,000 a very
> >inexpensive toy for a play car. With the conversion I know I could sell
it
> >for around $3500.00 a $1,500 loss but much less than a new toy.
> >
> >4. Distributor - this is kinda up in the air some say it has to be replac
ed
> >with a vac advance distributaor and some say t does not, i will have to
try
> >the original first and if it don't work then replace it.
> >
> >5. The biggest issue is the transmission with the kickdown, most
> >information is split 50/50 but it appears the the computer does not
control
> >the transmission and is controlled by a cable that may have to custom
made
> >but certainly doable I think.
> >
> >6. Digital dash - the digital (as another very attempt) will still be
> >controlled by the ECM.
> >
> >The total expenditures from Jegs (with the exception of the distributator
> >and transmission) is less that $500.00
> >
> >Please give me any comments or knowledge from your experiences.
> >
> >Thanks in advance.
> >
> >Art
> >'84 red/red
> >soon to be carburated
> >
>
>
> (1) who cares about the value of the car. It's your car do what you
> will.
> If is of value to you to keep it stock then get it fixed. If you want
> to hot rod it or modify it, then do so. You can post a simple
> question and you'll always get different answers. If you live in an
> emissions strict state then it has to matter to you in order to get it
> to pass. Otherwise its your car.
>
> (2) I guarantee you that there are a number of manifold and carb
> setups
> that will fit under the hood. I'm sure a tune port setup would fit
> under the hood too.
>
> (3) the Value is in your eyes....
>
> (4) If you go with a carb setup then you don't use an electronically
> controlled distributor (ECM controlled).
>
> (5) I'm sure a 1984 car uses a TV / kick down cable for trans
> control.
> this is easily modified to work on any number of combinations. You
> need to start looking at some hot rod magazines, online resources. Its
> very common to swap out 700R4 transmissions into old cars ... IF you
> are going to run a carb setup for fuel then you stay with a 700R4
> transmission. This is not a big issue at all, most any shop can get
> something to work here. I suspect that a TV cable out of a 92K1500
> would almost work fine.
>
> (6) I think the dash could be the biggest issue if its ECM controlled,
> but in 1984 there were very few cars that had any type of ECM control
> much less control over the dash. This should be very easy to call
> and find out about, as there are any number of shops that just do
> corvette work. I just don't think that in 1984 the ECM controlled
> very much at all, beyond maybe timing, fuel to some degree, and may
> have read engine temp and or O2 level to adjust for fuel.
>
>
> Get over the hurdle and go buy the shop manuals for your car. Make
> some phone calls, ask around where you live.
>
> A 79 Corvette would have a carb and distributor setup you could
> replicate. A TV cable for your transmission would be easy to do.
> You might make some real gains in power by going with a tuned port
> setup, but that's your call.
>
> Once again your project cars value is what it worth to you. IF you
> have fun with it and it serves your interest then who cars what other
> do. There are plenty of people who $hit-canned the early fuel
> injection crap and went with a carb setup on various GM cars, because
> a number of them plain sucked. Now with hindsight its known that the
> tuned ports are good performers, and not to hard to setup, or even
> entire engine swaps...LT1 for an example would be great candidate for
> a vette. Most any of the 5.7 engines out of Z-28 or trans-am would
> also be good (fuel injected).
>
> If that were my car, my only two concerns would be. (1) can I pass
> emissions if required (2) what kind of crap would I have to deal with
> to get the dash to work.
>
> Outside of that everything else is just how
> you want to proceed. Either old school with a carb, or something new
> with a modern fuel injection setup.
> -----------
> Elbert
>
>

Emmision controls have been around starting from 1968, Catalyst requirements
1974-75, so 1984 isn't exactly the beginning.

Bypassing emmision controls? Might as well tear out the ECM, and all the
wiring that goes with it. You can't cherry-pick with the ECM. You did plan
on rewiring the car, didn't you? Your digital dash?... I guess you'll
replace everything with analog gages, 'cause non of the electronics will
work.

Classifying it as a street rod maybe false thinking. IIRC that car must meet
the emmission standards in effect at time of manufacture. Federal Law
prohibits removing any type of emmision control device when it is operated
on any public roadway, in any juristiction of the U.S. that receives Federal
Highway Funds.

700R4: Electronic controls? yes and no. A little jewel call a VSS, wired to
the cluster/ECM. You'll have to reverse engineer this system.

And you better consider what you're going to do with the fuel pump/delivery
system. That carb you spec'd WILL NOT handle the pressure from that
electronic pump!

Your $500 quote is laughable!

You'll spend that just to get the wares from JEGS. Then you'll spend at
least another $2K in misc. parts and labor to get it to run.

"Billy Ryman" > wrote in message
...
> Emmision controls have been around starting from 1968, Catalyst
> requirements 1974-75, so 1984 isn't exactly the beginning.
>
> Bypassing emmision controls? Might as well tear out the ECM, and all the
> wiring that goes with it. You can't cherry-pick with the ECM. You did plan
> on rewiring the car, didn't you? Your digital dash?... I guess you'll
> replace everything with analog gages, 'cause non of the electronics will
> work.
>
> Classifying it as a street rod maybe false thinking. IIRC that car must
> meet the emmission standards in effect at time of manufacture. Federal Law
> prohibits removing any type of emmision control device when it is operated
> on any public roadway, in any juristiction of the U.S. that receives
> Federal Highway Funds.
>
> 700R4: Electronic controls? yes and no. A little jewel call a VSS, wired
> to the cluster/ECM. You'll have to reverse engineer this system.
>
> And you better consider what you're going to do with the fuel
> pump/delivery system. That carb you spec'd WILL NOT handle the pressure
> from that electronic pump!
>
> Your $500 quote is laughable!

My thought is it is probably missing quite a few pieces that will eventually
become necessary.

> You'll spend that just to get the wares from JEGS. Then you'll spend at
> least another $2K in misc. parts and labor to get it to run.

The guy has had his heart set on this refit since he showed up. NO ONE,
including someone who has already done the exact conversion and strongly
advises against it, can talk this guy out of what is going to be a
time-consuming, expensive mistake.

Again, this person places no value whatsoever on his own time, he has a huge
misunderstanding of the complexity of this conversion, or he saved some poor
mechanic's life at some point and is getting the payback. Let him go, but
anyone who abets the effort shares the blame.

AJM
'93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp (both tops)

"CardsFan" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Billy Ryman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Emmision controls have been around starting from 1968, Catalyst
>> requirements 1974-75, so 1984 isn't exactly the beginning.
>>
>> Bypassing emmision controls? Might as well tear out the ECM, and all the
>> wiring that goes with it. You can't cherry-pick with the ECM. You did
>> plan on rewiring the car, didn't you? Your digital dash?... I guess
>> you'll replace everything with analog gages, 'cause non of the
>> electronics will work.
>>
>> Classifying it as a street rod maybe false thinking. IIRC that car must
>> meet the emmission standards in effect at time of manufacture. Federal
>> Law prohibits removing any type of emmision control device when it is
>> operated on any public roadway, in any juristiction of the U.S. that
>> receives Federal Highway Funds.
>>
>> 700R4: Electronic controls? yes and no. A little jewel call a VSS, wired
>> to the cluster/ECM. You'll have to reverse engineer this system.
>>
>> And you better consider what you're going to do with the fuel
>> pump/delivery system. That carb you spec'd WILL NOT handle the pressure
>> from that electronic pump!
>>
>> Your $500 quote is laughable!
>
> My thought is it is probably missing quite a few pieces that will
> eventually become necessary.
>
>> You'll spend that just to get the wares from JEGS. Then you'll spend at
>> least another $2K in misc. parts and labor to get it to run.
>
> The guy has had his heart set on this refit since he showed up. NO ONE,
> including someone who has already done the exact conversion and strongly
> advises against it, can talk this guy out of what is going to be a
> time-consuming, expensive mistake.
>
> Again, this person places no value whatsoever on his own time, he has a
> huge misunderstanding of the complexity of this conversion, or he saved
> some poor mechanic's life at some point and is getting the payback. Let
> him go, but anyone who abets the effort shares the blame.
>
> AJM
> '93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp (both tops)
>

Amen.

The irony here is that he could spend $445 for an X-RAM manifold and tap
into some engine potential, and not turn the car into a basket case....

"For Sale: '84 C4 re/red/dead. New Carb & Manifold. Must be towed to be
appreciated. $3500"