Price fixing among tire manufacturers

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 05:06:54 GMT, "My Name Is Nobody" >
wrote:

>
>"Gene S. Berkowitz" > wrote in message
. ..
>> In article <lkjej.886$nN5.202@trndny04>, says...
>>>
>>> "Jeff" > wrote in message
>>> news:60iej.1373$jX4.873@trnddc07...
>>> > Bill Putney wrote:
>>> >> Jeff wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
>>> >>> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how much
>>> >>> water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large amount
>>> >>> of
>>> >>> water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single quarter
>>> >>> pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for the same
>>> >>> amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears of corn or
>>> >>> other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).
>>> >>
>>> >> But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used.
>>> >> It
>>> >> gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that
>>> >> would
>>> >> make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods of
>>> >> time.
>>> >> IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's not lost.
>>> >> It's
>>> >> pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps after some
>>> >> processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should use 300
>>> >> gallons
>>> >> of water for a bath - just an illustration)
>>> >
>>> > Yet water is rarely reused. There are a few exceptions where water is
>>> > recycled. In some parts of California, they are planning on purifying
>>> > the
>>> > water and injecting it back into the ground. Some people recycle
>>>
>>> Well perhaps, if you exclude the largest source of recycled water,
>>> RAIN...
>>
>> Much rainwater that falls in the USA is unfit for consumption without
>> some sort of treatment process, due to atmospheric pollution. Often,
>> that treatment is performed by another shrinking natural resource,
>> wetlands. Otherwise, it is performed by treating the municipal water
>> supply.
>>
The correct word is "DEPLETED"
The Aquifers ARE being depleted faster than they are recharged. The
fresh water ends up diluting the salt water untill it evaporates
(slower from salt than fresh water bodies) and falls again as rain
(which with changing weather patterns means the water might NEVER
return to where it was originally extracted from the aquifer, and the
aquifer may NEVER be recharged.

It IS a SERIOUS issue. No Chicken Little involved.
>> 20% of irrigated land in the USA is supplied by the Ogallala Aquifer,
>> which consists of water trapped in sediment during the last ice age. It
>> is being consumed at four times the rate it is being replaced. Should
>> the aquifer go dry, that 20% of (highly productive) land will fall out
>> of production, as it doesn't receive enough rain to be productive on
>> rainfall alone.
>>
>> Aquifers, not rainfall, supply 60% of the fresh water in the USA, and
>> virtually all of them are being consumed faster than their recharge
>> rate.
>>
>> --Gene
>>
>>
>
>Consumed??? Wrong!!!
>
>con·sume : to destroy or expend by use; use up.
>
>It is water "before" being used, and it is still water after being used, at
>most, it has been moved, but certainly not consumed...
>
>Besides, in many areas of the world including in the USA, humans can and do
>DRINK rain water.
>
>http://www.auerhaus.org/systems/rainwater.htm
>
>


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

I believe that what yo are noticing is, "what the market will bear,"
pricing.

I'm sure that the marketing guys all get out to see what the competition
costs, and they price accordingly. If people that want a 700 tire will pay
$95, then the tire makers are going to charge $95. They will sell an
equivelent size 400 tire for $90, if the market will bear it. This is not
price fixing as much as it is comptetitive pricing.

There is a chance that when you shop Sears, Costco, and America's Tire for
the same size and make of tire, the price will be within pennies of the same
price. Expand the search to different makes of the same size, and the
pricing differential may or may not grow, depending on many factors.

You can grow your search from a 205 to a 215 or 225, with an attendant
reduction is sidewall -- reduction from 70 to 65 or 60 -- to arrive at the
same overall diameter, and dial in the 700 rating you want, and perhaps find
more price variances. A 205/70 is a very narrow tire, and maybe that size is
not widely used -- which makes the prices go up.

My BMW took a 225/55x15 as the standard fitment. This size came on my car as
a Goodyear Eagle, but nobody (other car makers) else used it, and as a
consequence, the size was very expensive to replace. I found myself facing a
charge of $1000 out-the-door for them, $250 each for four. I switched to a
225/45x17, bought 5 new rims and tires, and paid only about $150 more than I
would have paid for 4 tires of the 15" size. Now, I can fit a new set of
tires (4) on my car for about $450 instead of $1000.

I'm not suggesting you buy new rims, I'm only illustrating that a tire size
that is more widely used will be cheaper than a tire with a very narrow
market space.




<snip rest>

Jeff Strickland wrote:
> I believe that what yo are noticing is, "what the market will bear,"
> pricing.

Well, they said that about gasoline prices. They said that people
wouldn't pay more than $2.00 per gallon. Oopsie. The market will will
obviously bear $3.00 gasoline. An oil company can price the gasoline at
$10.00 per gallon if they want. They won't have many takers, though,
unless the gas station is the only one near an airport or in a wide area.

What he's noticing is competition.

> I'm sure that the marketing guys all get out to see what the competition
> costs, and they price accordingly. If people that want a 700 tire will
> pay $95, then the tire makers are going to charge $95. They will sell an
> equivelent size 400 tire for $90, if the market will bear it. This is
> not price fixing as much as it is comptetitive pricing.
>
> There is a chance that when you shop Sears, Costco, and America's Tire
> for the same size and make of tire, the price will be within pennies of
> the same price. Expand the search to different makes of the same size,
> and the pricing differential may or may not grow, depending on many
> factors.
>
> You can grow your search from a 205 to a 215 or 225, with an attendant
> reduction is sidewall -- reduction from 70 to 65 or 60 -- to arrive at
> the same overall diameter, and dial in the 700 rating you want, and
> perhaps find more price variances. A 205/70 is a very narrow tire, and
> maybe that size is not widely used -- which makes the prices go up.
>
> My BMW took a 225/55x15 as the standard fitment. This size came on my
> car as a Goodyear Eagle, but nobody (other car makers) else used it, and
> as a consequence, the size was very expensive to replace. I found myself
> facing a charge of $1000 out-the-door for them, $250 each for four. I
> switched to a 225/45x17, bought 5 new rims and tires, and paid only
> about $150 more than I would have paid for 4 tires of the 15" size. Now,
> I can fit a new set of tires (4) on my car for about $450 instead of $1000.
>
> I'm not suggesting you buy new rims, I'm only illustrating that a tire
> size that is more widely used will be cheaper than a tire with a very
> narrow market space.
>
>
>
>
> <snip rest>
>

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All,
>
> I've been recently looking for tires (size 205-70-15) and I am finding
> among the retailers that for the mileage I'm looking for (80K) and
> the UTQGS ratings (treadwear 700, traction A, Temp B) that the
> prices are virtually identical. The biggest difference is pricing for the
> road hazard warranties and for balancing, etc. from the tire dealers.
>
> What I really don't understand is why this is the case. For example,
> Goodyear tires are manufactured in the US, by an American-owned company.
> Michelin, and Bridgestone/Firestone tires are manufactured in China by an
> American-owned company. Lastly, Toyo/Tourevo tires are an Asian-owned
> firm and are manufactured in Asia.
>
> I understand reading from the trade rags that US companies have
> outsourced manufacturing to Asia to save money. I also understand from
> the trade rags that CEO's of Asian companies don't take the gigantic
> pay amounts that US CEO's do.
>
> So, in principle, the Goodyears should be the most expensive, followed
> by the Firestone, then the Toyo stuff should be the cheapest.
>
> Yet, this is not the case. Pricing differers very little, in fact the
> Toyo
> stuff is a bit more expensive.
>
> Of course, if I compare a house brand (like Walmart's Goodyear Viva)
> that has a much lower UTQGS treadwear rating against the others, I see
> big differences. But, I would expect this to be so.
>
> Now, maybe the tire dealers are making up the differences on the mounting
> and balancing costs - but I kind of doubt it. The equipment they use is
> all expensive and they are paying a lot of employee salaries, I can't
> imagine
> they do anything more than break even on those costs.
>
> Anyway, the point is that there seems to be a wide difference in what the
> wholesale cost of the tire ought to be due to structural differences - the
> dealers I've looked at seem to have widely different purchasing power (
> Comparing Walmart against say Firestone dealers) and the tire
> manufacturers
> have widely different corporate structures and the manufacturing is also
> different. I cannot believe all these dealers are paying the same money
> for
> tires. But, they all seem to be selling them for the same money.
>
> What happened to competition? Seems to me there ought to be a big
> case here for an anti-trust price fixing lawsuit against the tire
> manufacturers.
> Anyone have any ideas?
> Ted

Forget about buying name-brand tires. The off-brands are made by the same
companies.
Go to your local one-man garage mechanic and tell him you want decent tires
that are 'Blems'. Blems are Blemmished tires meaning they have a slight,
often unnoticable, cosmetic defect... like a letter on the sidewall is not
perfect but the price is up to 1/3 lower. You might also want to consider
re-caps which are cheaper still, sometimes as low as $35-40 a tire. My
neighbor buys her tires from the junkyard and has come home with like new
Goodyears for $10 each.

Duncan wrote:
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I've been recently looking for tires (size 205-70-15) and I am finding
>> among the retailers that for the mileage I'm looking for (80K) and
>> the UTQGS ratings (treadwear 700, traction A, Temp B) that the
>> prices are virtually identical. The biggest difference is pricing for the
>> road hazard warranties and for balancing, etc. from the tire dealers.
>>
>> What I really don't understand is why this is the case. For example,
>> Goodyear tires are manufactured in the US, by an American-owned company.
>> Michelin, and Bridgestone/Firestone tires are manufactured in China by an
>> American-owned company. Lastly, Toyo/Tourevo tires are an Asian-owned
>> firm and are manufactured in Asia.
>>
>> I understand reading from the trade rags that US companies have
>> outsourced manufacturing to Asia to save money. I also understand from
>> the trade rags that CEO's of Asian companies don't take the gigantic
>> pay amounts that US CEO's do.
>>
>> So, in principle, the Goodyears should be the most expensive, followed
>> by the Firestone, then the Toyo stuff should be the cheapest.
>>
>> Yet, this is not the case. Pricing differers very little, in fact the
>> Toyo
>> stuff is a bit more expensive.
>>
>> Of course, if I compare a house brand (like Walmart's Goodyear Viva)
>> that has a much lower UTQGS treadwear rating against the others, I see
>> big differences. But, I would expect this to be so.
>>
>> Now, maybe the tire dealers are making up the differences on the mounting
>> and balancing costs - but I kind of doubt it. The equipment they use is
>> all expensive and they are paying a lot of employee salaries, I can't
>> imagine
>> they do anything more than break even on those costs.
>>
>> Anyway, the point is that there seems to be a wide difference in what the
>> wholesale cost of the tire ought to be due to structural differences - the
>> dealers I've looked at seem to have widely different purchasing power (
>> Comparing Walmart against say Firestone dealers) and the tire
>> manufacturers
>> have widely different corporate structures and the manufacturing is also
>> different. I cannot believe all these dealers are paying the same money
>> for
>> tires. But, they all seem to be selling them for the same money.
>>
>> What happened to competition? Seems to me there ought to be a big
>> case here for an anti-trust price fixing lawsuit against the tire
>> manufacturers.
>> Anyone have any ideas?
>> Ted
>
> Forget about buying name-brand tires. The off-brands are made by the same
> companies.

Some off-brand tires are made by the same companies. Some are made by
other companies, like companies in China. In addition, even if off-brand
tires are made by the same companies, they may be made with different
materials or to lower standards than the brand tires. I am not saying
that you can't save money this way, but only that the tires are not
necessarily the same, although they might be.

Jeff

"Jeff" > wrote in message
news:KrUej.8235$4m5.3013@trnddc02...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> I believe that what yo are noticing is, "what the market will bear,"
>> pricing.
>
> Well, they said that about gasoline prices. They said that people wouldn't
> pay more than $2.00 per gallon. Oopsie. The market will will obviously
> bear $3.00 gasoline. An oil company can price the gasoline at $10.00 per
> gallon if they want. They won't have many takers, though, unless the gas
> station is the only one near an airport or in a wide area.
>

.... or the other stations nearby also price their gas at $10. Sure, most
will not stop and pay that kind of money, but if that is the only number
they see, and they need gas, they will have to pay. Granted, they will only
buy a gallon or two at that price in the hopes they find another station
with better pricing before they get to the end of that load of fuel.

Personally, I do not buy into the idea that gasoline is priced on a strictly
supply & demand model. I think there is a huge, "why charge $1.00 for one
gallon if you can get away with charging $2.00 for a half gallon?" mentality
going on.

Yes, the price of crude rises and this pushes up the price at the pump. But,
I'd suggest that prices at the pump rise faster than the price of crude, and
they rise occasionally when the price of crude is falling. I've even noticed
crude prices go up and pump prices remain flat. But, I've noticed on far
more occasions that the price of gas shoots up a quarter or so in a couple
of days, then floats back down ten or twelve cents over several weeks, all
while crude prices have not moved.

Rising crude prices should have a fixed affect on prices at the pump because
crude is a fixed quantity of oil, and it produces the same quantity of
gasoline, no matter how much it costs. So, if a barrel of crude is 55
gallons <or whatever it is> and this much crude can make 20 gallons of
gasoline <or whatever it can make>, then a rise in crude prices of a dollar
should translate to a rise in gas prices of about 3 cents. (I do not know
how many gallons in a barrel, not how many gallons of gas a barrel of crude
makes, and it isn't really important here. I wanted to illustrate that a
dollar change in a barrel of crude works through the system to affect a
3-cent change in a gallon of gas.) The bottom line is, gas prices change for
many reasons other than fluctuations in the price of crude, many of those
reasons come out of the refineries themselves.







> What he's noticing is competition.
>
>> I'm sure that the marketing guys all get out to see what the competition
>> costs, and they price accordingly. If people that want a 700 tire will
>> pay $95, then the tire makers are going to charge $95. They will sell an
>> equivelent size 400 tire for $90, if the market will bear it. This is not
>> price fixing as much as it is comptetitive pricing.
>>
>> There is a chance that when you shop Sears, Costco, and America's Tire
>> for the same size and make of tire, the price will be within pennies of
>> the same price. Expand the search to different makes of the same size,
>> and the pricing differential may or may not grow, depending on many
>> factors.
>>
>> You can grow your search from a 205 to a 215 or 225, with an attendant
>> reduction is sidewall -- reduction from 70 to 65 or 60 -- to arrive at
>> the same overall diameter, and dial in the 700 rating you want, and
>> perhaps find more price variances. A 205/70 is a very narrow tire, and
>> maybe that size is not widely used -- which makes the prices go up.
>>
>> My BMW took a 225/55x15 as the standard fitment. This size came on my car
>> as a Goodyear Eagle, but nobody (other car makers) else used it, and as a
>> consequence, the size was very expensive to replace. I found myself
>> facing a charge of $1000 out-the-door for them, $250 each for four. I
>> switched to a 225/45x17, bought 5 new rims and tires, and paid only about
>> $150 more than I would have paid for 4 tires of the 15" size. Now, I can
>> fit a new set of tires (4) on my car for about $450 instead of $1000.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting you buy new rims, I'm only illustrating that a tire
>> size that is more widely used will be cheaper than a tire with a very
>> narrow market space.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <snip rest>
>>

Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> news:KrUej.8235$4m5.3013@trnddc02...
>> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> I believe that what yo are noticing is, "what the market will bear,"
>>> pricing.
>>
>> Well, they said that about gasoline prices. They said that people
>> wouldn't pay more than $2.00 per gallon. Oopsie. The market will will
>> obviously bear $3.00 gasoline. An oil company can price the gasoline
>> at $10.00 per gallon if they want. They won't have many takers,
>> though, unless the gas station is the only one near an airport or in a
>> wide area.
>>
>
> ... or the other stations nearby also price their gas at $10. Sure, most
> will not stop and pay that kind of money, but if that is the only number
> they see, and they need gas, they will have to pay. Granted, they will
> only buy a gallon or two at that price in the hopes they find another
> station with better pricing before they get to the end of that load of
> fuel.
>
> Personally, I do not buy into the idea that gasoline is priced on a
> strictly supply & demand model. I think there is a huge, "why charge
> $1.00 for one gallon if you can get away with charging $2.00 for a half
> gallon?" mentality going on.
>
> Yes, the price of crude rises and this pushes up the price at the pump.
> But, I'd suggest that prices at the pump rise faster than the price of
> crude, and they rise occasionally when the price of crude is falling.

We pretty much agree here.

It takes a few months to go from well to gasoline pump. So the prices at
the pump often reflect the prices from a few months ago, but usually
only if the price is going down (as you point out, prices tend to shoot
up faster than they go down).

> I've even noticed crude prices go up and pump prices remain flat. But,
> I've noticed on far more occasions that the price of gas shoots up a
> quarter or so in a couple of days, then floats back down ten or twelve
> cents over several weeks, all while crude prices have not moved.

Yeah. Stations rise gasoline prices as soon as the cost of the next
truckload goes up, even if they have enough gas for a week. However, the
keep the price of the gas up as long as they can. What would you do?

> Rising crude prices should have a fixed affect on prices at the pump
> because crude is a fixed quantity of oil, and it produces the same
> quantity of gasoline, no matter how much it costs. So, if a barrel of
> crude is 55 gallons <or whatever it is> and this much crude can make 20
> gallons of gasoline <or whatever it can make>, then a rise in crude
> prices of a dollar should translate to a rise in gas prices of about 3
> cents.

That's pretty close. A barrel is 42 gal., but after refining, it makes
nearly 50 gallons of fuel and other petroleum products, because ethanol
and other additives are added. So each rise of $1.00 in the crude oil
price should raise the cost of a gallon of gasoline by about $0.02 to
$0.025.

And the price does clearly stick pretty close to this:

<http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/gas_vs_oil_price_comparison.htm>

Obviously, there are other factors at play than just the cost of crude oil.

> (I do not know how many gallons in a barrel, not how many gallons
> of gas a barrel of crude makes, and it isn't really important here. I
> wanted to illustrate that a dollar change in a barrel of crude works
> through the system to affect a 3-cent change in a gallon of gas.) The
> bottom line is, gas prices change for many reasons other than
> fluctuations in the price of crude, many of those reasons come out of
> the refineries themselves.

There are many reasons, not the least of which is the desire of everyone
who sells crude oil and gasoline to sell it for the highest price
possible. If they can keep the price up, they will. However, the people
who don't make more profit is the gas stations. Their costs go up about
$0.01 to $0.02 for every $1.00 the gas goes up, because the credit card
processing fees are fixed (usually around $0.20 + 2% or so), so when the
price shoots up by $1, it costs them $0.02 more to pump it when someone
uses a credit card.

They other things that do affect the price of gas are production
problems (that's why the price of gasoline went up after the hurricanes
in the Gulf two years ago), temporary or anticipated shortages when
there are refinery fires or when the refineries change the type of fuel
in the spring and winter (winter blend <--> fuel oil for heating houses
<--> summer blend <--> diesel). Even where the gas station is located
affects the cost that the gas station pays for fuel (gas stations near
interstates or airports often pay more for gas than if they are located
in small cities away from the interstate; gas stations in CA also pay
more because it costs more to make the fuel mandated by CA law).

Jeff

"Duncan" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've been recently looking for tires (size 205-70-15) and I am finding
> > among the retailers that for the mileage I'm looking for (80K) and
> > the UTQGS ratings (treadwear 700, traction A, Temp B) that the
> > prices are virtually identical. The biggest difference is pricing for
the
> > road hazard warranties and for balancing, etc. from the tire dealers.
> >
> > What I really don't understand is why this is the case. For example,
> > Goodyear tires are manufactured in the US, by an American-owned company.
> > Michelin, and Bridgestone/Firestone tires are manufactured in China by
an
> > American-owned company. Lastly, Toyo/Tourevo tires are an Asian-owned
> > firm and are manufactured in Asia.
> >
> > I understand reading from the trade rags that US companies have
> > outsourced manufacturing to Asia to save money. I also understand from
> > the trade rags that CEO's of Asian companies don't take the gigantic
> > pay amounts that US CEO's do.
> >
> > So, in principle, the Goodyears should be the most expensive, followed
> > by the Firestone, then the Toyo stuff should be the cheapest.
> >
> > Yet, this is not the case. Pricing differers very little, in fact the
> > Toyo
> > stuff is a bit more expensive.
> >
> > Of course, if I compare a house brand (like Walmart's Goodyear Viva)
> > that has a much lower UTQGS treadwear rating against the others, I see
> > big differences. But, I would expect this to be so.
> >
> > Now, maybe the tire dealers are making up the differences on the
mounting
> > and balancing costs - but I kind of doubt it. The equipment they use is
> > all expensive and they are paying a lot of employee salaries, I can't
> > imagine
> > they do anything more than break even on those costs.
> >
> > Anyway, the point is that there seems to be a wide difference in what
the
> > wholesale cost of the tire ought to be due to structural differences -
the
> > dealers I've looked at seem to have widely different purchasing power (
> > Comparing Walmart against say Firestone dealers) and the tire
> > manufacturers
> > have widely different corporate structures and the manufacturing is also
> > different. I cannot believe all these dealers are paying the same money
> > for
> > tires. But, they all seem to be selling them for the same money.
> >
> > What happened to competition? Seems to me there ought to be a big
> > case here for an anti-trust price fixing lawsuit against the tire
> > manufacturers.
> > Anyone have any ideas?
> > Ted
>
> Forget about buying name-brand tires. The off-brands are made by the same
> companies.
> Go to your local one-man garage mechanic and tell him you want decent
tires
> that are 'Blems'. Blems are Blemmished tires meaning they have a slight,
> often unnoticable, cosmetic defect... like a letter on the sidewall is
not
> perfect but the price is up to 1/3 lower.

Nobody puts whitewall or white lettering tires on the side of a minivan
unless they want to look like the local neighborhood child pervert. I think
the opportunity for blemished tires in the size I'm looking for is low since
most blems deal with lettering/ whitewall problems.

>You might also want to consider
> re-caps which are cheaper still, sometimes as low as $35-40 a tire.

I bought a set of recaps once when Les Schwab was still selling them They
did their
own recapping. All 4 tires had different carcasses. The tread wore out
very quickly.
This is yet another 1950's stunt. It worked fine with Bias Ply tires (and
still does with
semi truck tires which aren't radial) but passenger car recappers aren't
setup to categorize
tire carcasses on anything other than size, so your never going to get a set
of tires with the
same handling characteristics. It's a non-starter for modern radials and
likely would make
the car handling dangerous for the average driver.

My
> neighbor buys her tires from the junkyard and has come home with like new
> Goodyears for $10 each.
>

Chances of finding a decent set of FOUR in a wrecking yard are next to
nothing.
The reason is there's 2 kinds of cars in a wrecking yard. The first are old
POS cars
that engine failed. The people that ran those cars knew they were dying and
so
didn't maintain them worth **** - which means they put the crappiest cheap
tires they
could find on them. The second type of cars are new nice cars that got
smashed up.
What happens with those is if the tires are really nice, really expensive
tires, the places
that sell used tires (there's a few in our area) all have deals with the
yards where they
get called when those cars come in and they get first dibs on them.
Otherwise they
go right into the yards. And 90% of the time, 1 of the quadrants of the car
is really
smashed up bad, and that side wheel and tire are hashed.

If the car has aluminum mags, the yards immediately dismount the tires and
throw them
into the big pile of old tires and they go off to the tire recycler, and the
aluminum
mags go to the smelter. My van has aluminum mags. If they have steel rims,
they sit,
on the rims, until the steel price on mixed metal goes up, and then the
wreckers start
smashing cars and throwing the rims and tires in with the steel that goes
off to the steel
shredder.

Sometimes you can find a set of TWO or THREE nice tires with less than 20%
treadwear
on them. You will be competing with the Mexicans in the yard who are
looking for cheap
tires for their beater cars of course. They will still
be on the steel rims and your going to have to pay to have them dismounted.
And, there
will be no road hazard warranty on them so a year down the road if one goes
flat, your
going to be paying for a flat repair, and if one gets punctured to where it
can't be fixed,
your going to be headed back to the wrecker to find another.

The wreckers are fine if your just looking for ONE tire that matches a set
that you already
have, for example, you ran over a pothole and destroyed the tire sidewall of
a set of 4
that are worn down only 15% or so. The alternative is of course buying a
new set of 2
tires to get even tread on both sides of that axle.

Ted

Jeff Strickland wrote:
> ...You can grow your search from a 205 to a 215 or 225, with an attendant
> reduction is sidewall -- reduction from 70 to 65 or 60 -- to arrive at
> the same overall diameter, and dial in the 700 rating you want, and
> perhaps find more price variances. A 205/70 is a very narrow tire, and
> maybe that size is not widely used -- which makes the prices go up.

So they're priced like bikinis: The less material, the higher the price.

Bill Putney
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On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:52:21 GMT, Jeff >
wrote:

>Duncan wrote:
>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I've been recently looking for tires (size 205-70-15) and I am finding
>>> among the retailers that for the mileage I'm looking for (80K) and
>>> the UTQGS ratings (treadwear 700, traction A, Temp B) that the
>>> prices are virtually identical. The biggest difference is pricing for the
>>> road hazard warranties and for balancing, etc. from the tire dealers.
>>>
>>> What I really don't understand is why this is the case. For example,
>>> Goodyear tires are manufactured in the US, by an American-owned company.
>>> Michelin, and Bridgestone/Firestone tires are manufactured in China by an
>>> American-owned company. Lastly, Toyo/Tourevo tires are an Asian-owned
>>> firm and are manufactured in Asia.
>>>
>>> I understand reading from the trade rags that US companies have
>>> outsourced manufacturing to Asia to save money. I also understand from
>>> the trade rags that CEO's of Asian companies don't take the gigantic
>>> pay amounts that US CEO's do.
>>>
>>> So, in principle, the Goodyears should be the most expensive, followed
>>> by the Firestone, then the Toyo stuff should be the cheapest.
>>>
>>> Yet, this is not the case. Pricing differers very little, in fact the
>>> Toyo
>>> stuff is a bit more expensive.
>>>
>>> Of course, if I compare a house brand (like Walmart's Goodyear Viva)
>>> that has a much lower UTQGS treadwear rating against the others, I see
>>> big differences. But, I would expect this to be so.
>>>
>>> Now, maybe the tire dealers are making up the differences on the mounting
>>> and balancing costs - but I kind of doubt it. The equipment they use is
>>> all expensive and they are paying a lot of employee salaries, I can't
>>> imagine
>>> they do anything more than break even on those costs.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the point is that there seems to be a wide difference in what the
>>> wholesale cost of the tire ought to be due to structural differences - the
>>> dealers I've looked at seem to have widely different purchasing power (
>>> Comparing Walmart against say Firestone dealers) and the tire
>>> manufacturers
>>> have widely different corporate structures and the manufacturing is also
>>> different. I cannot believe all these dealers are paying the same money
>>> for
>>> tires. But, they all seem to be selling them for the same money.
>>>
>>> What happened to competition? Seems to me there ought to be a big
>>> case here for an anti-trust price fixing lawsuit against the tire
>>> manufacturers.
>>> Anyone have any ideas?
>>> Ted
>>
>> Forget about buying name-brand tires. The off-brands are made by the same
>> companies.
>
>Some off-brand tires are made by the same companies. Some are made by
>other companies, like companies in China. In addition, even if off-brand
>tires are made by the same companies, they may be made with different
>materials or to lower standards than the brand tires. I am not saying
>that you can't save money this way, but only that the tires are not
>necessarily the same, although they might be.
>
>Jeff
Many "off brand" or "private brand" tires are/were actually built to a
HIGHER standard than the OEM quality brand name tires. When UniRoyal
built the Shell branded tires in the Kitchener Ontario plant, Uniroyal
employees would come and buy the SHELL tires because they were better
tires than the Uniroyal tires.

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