Price fixing among tire manufacturers

Jeff wrote:

> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how much
> water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large amount of
> water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single quarter
> pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for the same
> amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears of corn or
> other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).

But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used. It
gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that would
make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods of time.
IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's not lost.
It's pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps after some
processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should use 300
gallons of water for a bath - just an illustration)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

> If every maker picks the same base mileage for that "100" tire to
> achieve - say 20,000 miles - then advertising a UTQG 375 tire as
> "75,000 Miles" would make more sense to the consumer. But if they
> inflate the claim it makes the advertising irrelevant.
>
> (Don't pick on my math, I'm just making a rough guesstimate. It's
> somewhere in the 365 to 385 neighborhood...)
>
> --<< Bruce >>--

By using a relative rating (UTQG treadwear), it releases everyone from
achieving actual mileage, which is as it should be. It simply gives
some relative assessment of one tire's resistance to wear compared to
another. If I drive fast (say, 50 mph) around interstate cloverleafs,
and you drive them at reasonable speeds (say, 30-35 mph), a given
mileage rating (claim) is going to be meaningless (and subject to legal
recourse). However, if we both have 600 treadwear rated tires, we each
will both get more miles out of those tires than we would get out of 400
wear tires. But with your type of driving (using you again as the
hypothetical person who drives more slowly on cloverleafs and me as the
hypothetical aggressive driver), you may get more miles out of your 400
rated tires than I would get out of 600 rated ones - a fact due solely
to differences in our type of driving, in spite of the better wear
properties of the 600 rated tires.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
>> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how much
>> water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large amount
>> of water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single quarter
>> pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for the same
>> amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears of corn or
>> other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).
>
> But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used. It
> gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that would
> make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods of time.
> IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's not lost.
> It's pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps after some
> processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should use 300
> gallons of water for a bath - just an illustration)

Yet water is rarely reused. There are a few exceptions where water is
recycled. In some parts of California, they are planning on purifying
the water and injecting it back into the ground. Some people recycle
gray water (water that is relatively clean, like washwater from baths
and washing machines and use it to water their lawns). And sewage is
sometimes recycled for watering grass. And, of course, for many years,
water has been (and is) indirectly recycled when the same river is used
for sewage disposal and drinking water.

However, for the most part, when water is used, it effectively gone
forever for human use, because it usually ends up in the ocean or in the
air.

If I am incorrect, please explain why there are so many water shortages,
including in the US. In addition, in large areas of the US, the water
table continues to fall.

Jeff



> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')

"Jeff" > wrote in message
>> For most things we buy, the cost to produce an item has little to do with
>> its selling price (companies don't spend billions on advertising every
>> year for nothing, after all)
>>
>> <snip>
>
> I would like to see your evidence for this.


The evidence is all around you. Look at the clothing and cosmetic industry.
Then stop off at the jewelry department. It is common in those business to
have a dealer offer goods at a certain price, then ask what selling price
you want them tagged and the variation can be 500%. How about the cost of
making a bottle of beer or wine?

I know a craftsman that makes a wood product. He started selling a
particular box for $50. When the demand went up, he raised prices to $100
and found ways to cut the production time from two hours to 30 minutes. Do
you think he is going to lower his price?

Jeff wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>
>>> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
>>> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how much
>>> water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large amount
>>> of water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single quarter
>>> pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for the same
>>> amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears of corn or
>>> other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).
>>
>> But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used.
>> It gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that
>> would make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods
>> of time. IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's
>> not lost. It's pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps
>> after some processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should
>> use 300 gallons of water for a bath - just an illustration)
>
> Yet water is rarely reused. There are a few exceptions where water is
> recycled. In some parts of California, they are planning on purifying
> the water and injecting it back into the ground. Some people recycle
> gray water (water that is relatively clean, like washwater from baths
> and washing machines and use it to water their lawns). And sewage is
> sometimes recycled for watering grass. And, of course, for many years,
> water has been (and is) indirectly recycled when the same river is used
> for sewage disposal and drinking water.
>
> However, for the most part, when water is used, it effectively gone
> forever for human use, because it usually ends up in the ocean or in the
> air.
>
> If I am incorrect, please explain why there are so many water shortages,
> including in the US. In addition, in large areas of the US, the water
> table continues to fall.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>> Bill Putney
>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>> address with the letter 'x')

Look up the words "evaporation", "rain", and "distillation". They are a
big part of the answer.

I submit that 99.9% of the water that I use for any purpose whatsoever
is back in global use within 5 years of my using it - probably much
quicker - but certainly not gone for 100 years, much less forever. That
can't be said for, say, chemicals that are in epoxy that I use to glue
something together, or gasoline that I use in my car. Water is pretty
much 100% ultimately re-usable. Realizing of course that there is
certainly a time lag in its release (that "bound up" thing I mentioned).
But to say that once it's used, it's gone forever for human use - no way.

As for shortages - for every person with a shortage, there's someone
somewhere else during the same time period that has an excess (called
flooding). That means the issue is controlling and managing it. It
disappearing forever is not an issue.

The truth lies somewhere between zero and infinity. We could argue for
a long time exactly where.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
>> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how much
>> water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large amount of
>> water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single quarter
>> pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for the same
>> amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears of corn or
>> other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).
>
> But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used. It
> gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that would
> make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods of time.
> IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's not lost.

What are you...an effing whale?



> It's pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps after some
> processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should use 300 gallons
> of water for a bath - just an illustration)
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
> with the letter 'x')

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
>>> For most things we buy, the cost to produce an item has little to do with
>>> its selling price (companies don't spend billions on advertising every
>>> year for nothing, after all)
>>>
>>> <snip>
>> I would like to see your evidence for this.
>
>
> The evidence is all around you. Look at the clothing and cosmetic industry.
> Then stop off at the jewelry department. It is common in those business to
> have a dealer offer goods at a certain price, then ask what selling price
> you want them tagged and the variation can be 500%. How about the cost of
> making a bottle of beer or wine?
>
> I know a craftsman that makes a wood product. He started selling a
> particular box for $50. When the demand went up, he raised prices to $100
> and found ways to cut the production time from two hours to 30 minutes. Do
> you think he is going to lower his price?

Those are particular businesses. In other businesses, like most
utilities, energy, cars, computers, most services and many food
industries for the cost to produce a product to be closely related to
the cost at which a product is sold.

Even in each of those industries, the cost of a product has little to do
with the selling price (the cost of a 32 oz of soda that is sold at a
fast food restaurant is less than 10% of what the restaurant gets for
it), but for most industries, the cost of producing a product is a major
determining factor in the cost of the product. Otherwise, more and more
people would get into making the products, ultimately driving the cost
of the product closer to the cost of producing the product.

Jeff

Bill Putney wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>
>>>> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
>>>> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how
>>>> much water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large
>>>> amount of water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single
>>>> quarter pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for
>>>> the same amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears
>>>> of corn or other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).
>>>
>>> But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used.
>>> It gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that
>>> would make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods
>>> of time. IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's
>>> not lost. It's pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps
>>> after some processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should
>>> use 300 gallons of water for a bath - just an illustration)
>>
>> Yet water is rarely reused. There are a few exceptions where water is
>> recycled. In some parts of California, they are planning on purifying
>> the water and injecting it back into the ground. Some people recycle
>> gray water (water that is relatively clean, like washwater from baths
>> and washing machines and use it to water their lawns). And sewage is
>> sometimes recycled for watering grass. And, of course, for many years,
>> water has been (and is) indirectly recycled when the same river is
>> used for sewage disposal and drinking water.
>>
>> However, for the most part, when water is used, it effectively gone
>> forever for human use, because it usually ends up in the ocean or in
>> the air.
>>
>> If I am incorrect, please explain why there are so many water
>> shortages, including in the US. In addition, in large areas of the US,
>> the water table continues to fall.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>> Bill Putney
>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>> address with the letter 'x')
>
> Look up the words "evaporation", "rain", and "distillation". They are a
> big part of the answer.
>
> I submit that 99.9% of the water that I use for any purpose whatsoever
> is back in global use within 5 years of my using it - probably much
> quicker - but certainly not gone for 100 years, much less forever. That
> can't be said for, say, chemicals that are in epoxy that I use to glue
> something together, or gasoline that I use in my car. Water is pretty
> much 100% ultimately re-usable. Realizing of course that there is
> certainly a time lag in its release (that "bound up" thing I mentioned).
> But to say that once it's used, it's gone forever for human use - no way.

For all practical purposes, once water is used, it is gone forever. When
water goes down my drain, it goes to a sewage plant, then to a river and
out to sea. Certainly, the water will evaporate and eventually rain down
on earth someplace. Virtually the same amount of water would have rained
down on earth if that water were never used. In some parts of the world,
the water comes directly from the ocean (e.g., from reverse osmosis).

> As for shortages - for every person with a shortage, there's someone
> somewhere else during the same time period that has an excess (called
> flooding).

Really? Try telling that to the people in Ethiopia. I bet they really care.

> That means the issue is controlling and managing it. It
> disappearing forever is not an issue.

Wrong!

The water table in many parts of the US is getting lower and lower.
That's true in other parts of the world. Fresh water (i.e., water that
doesn't have a lot of salt in it) is a limited resource. There is a huge
amount available, but the amount of fresh water that is usable is
limited and shrinking.

> The truth lies somewhere between zero and infinity. We could argue for
> a long time exactly where.

I suggest you read this article and some of the references at the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_resources

Jeff

Happy New Year!

> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')

"Jeff" > wrote in message
>
> Those are particular businesses. In other businesses, like most utilities,
> energy, cars, computers, most services and many food industries for the
> cost to produce a product to be closely related to the cost at which a
> product is sold.

I don't think that is exactly what you mean. The cost of raw material
affects the cost of goods sold to some extent. Most industries have an index
of some sort. If the price of a barrel of oil goes up $1, the price of a
pound of plastic goes up 1¢ a pound. If the price of a bushel of wheat goes
up $5, the loaf of bread goes up 6¢. That allows the company to maintain
the same margins, but still may or may not be close to the cost of
production.


>
> Even in each of those industries, the cost of a product has little to do
> with the selling price (the cost of a 32 oz of soda that is sold at a fast
> food restaurant is less than 10% of what the restaurant gets for it), but
> for most industries, the cost of producing a product is a major
> determining factor in the cost of the product. Otherwise, more and more
> people would get into making the products, ultimately driving the cost of
> the product closer to the cost of producing the product.

The cost of making the first Ritz Cracker or steel beam is what stops most
of us from starting a business. Many items that sell for pennies require
huge up front investments. It is laughable when people talk about corporate
greed and obscene profits. Sure, some company fall into that category, but
most do not. Corporations have an obligation to be profitable and maintain
a safe workplace, pay their bills, etc. Our company maintains a large
inventory of finished goods. People look at it and make the statement that
"you guys must make a lot of money". Then we walk by the machines and I'll
ask what they think the gas bill is to operate. Most guess at $1000 or so.
Then I show them a $30,000 bill for the month.

"Jeff" > wrote in message
news:60iej.1373$jX4.873@trnddc07...
> Bill Putney wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>
>>> The American Museum of Natural History in NYC has a neat exhibition
>>> called something like H2O - the stuff of life, that looks at how much
>>> water people, especially Americans, use, as well as the large amount of
>>> water it takes to grow the food to feed a cow for a single quarter
>>> pounder with cheese compared to the water to grow crops for the same
>>> amount of food energy say in a loaf of bread or a few ears of corn or
>>> other vegetables (not even adjusting for the toys).
>>
>> But water is not permanently converted or bound up once it is used. It
>> gets released (OK - recycled) in short order. The only thing that would
>> make it globally scarce is if it gets bound up for long periods of time.
>> IOW - if I use 300 gallons of water to take one bath, it's not lost. It's
>> pretty much immediately available for use (perhaps after some
>> processing). (and no - I'm not saying that people should use 300 gallons
>> of water for a bath - just an illustration)
>
> Yet water is rarely reused. There are a few exceptions where water is
> recycled. In some parts of California, they are planning on purifying the
> water and injecting it back into the ground. Some people recycle

Well perhaps, if you exclude the largest source of recycled water, RAIN...


> gray water (water that is relatively clean, like washwater from baths and
> washing machines and use it to water their lawns). And sewage is sometimes
> recycled for watering grass. And, of course, for many years, water has
> been (and is) indirectly recycled when the same river is used for sewage
> disposal and drinking water.
>
> However, for the most part, when water is used, it effectively gone
> forever for human use, because it usually ends up in the ocean or in the
> air.
>
> If I am incorrect, please explain why there are so many water shortages,
> including in the US. In addition, in large areas of the US, the water
> table continues to fall.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>> Bill Putney
>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>> address with the letter 'x')