Do you know what an EDR is?

Dwight,
weren't you the guy following a Shelby at 100mph?

The fact that they are only recording 20 seconds and a few parameters now, does
not mean that they won't record lots of other things for longer periods of time.
I have a solid state box at work that records certain parameters for up to 3
months! Maybe in the future someone will call in your tags as going 100mph on
some stretch and the police or GEICO will download all your "flight data" for
the last month and issue you a ticket(s) and drop your insurance.


dwight wrote:

> "Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>Like one of the author opined. If you are driving right and obeying the
> >>law, these types of devices are your friend. If you caused an accident,
> >>you
> >>caused an accident...period. This is an investigative tool not an
> >>invasion
> >>of privacy, that is why it's limited to 20 seconds. Since it's only
> >>recording automobile conditions, presumably on public streets, there is no
> >>expectation of privacy.
> >>
> >
> > Since it's YOUR car you should have the right to have or not have the
> > device. When you are on public streets would you agree that if the
> > gvt wanted to they could make you run around naked because "presumably
> > on public streets, there is no expectation of privacy."
> >
> > You sound like just another sheep....
>
> In Pennsylvania (at least), driving is a privilege, not a right. You may own
> the car, but you do not have an inherant right to drive it on public
> roadways.
>
> If you DO drive it on public roadways, you've got a TON of rules and
> regulations (plus optional common courtesies) that must be followed. If
> you've ever been a student of modern commuter traffic, you would marvel that
> it works at all (99.9% of the time).
>
> The first thing that happens in any plane crash, from a 747 to a Cessna, is
> the opening of the black box, to help in finding out exactly what happened
> to cause the crash. The hope here is NOT that the crash can be blamed on the
> pilot, but that the answers will help avoid future crashes in similar
> circumstances. Now, if the pilot DID screw up, I think we'd all like to know
> about it.
>
> A similar little black box in my car wouldn't bother me in the slightest. In
> fact, I welcome it; in the event that there IS an incident, I trust that it
> would back me up, not point a finger of blame. I'm not worried. Yes, I like
> to drive somewhat faster than posted speed limits, but how often is that
> single element the cause of a crash?
>
> But go ahead, disconnect your little black box. If you're all that worried
> about "government interference in your private life," stay home. Once you
> take your privately-owned automobile out onto a public roadway, your actions
> behind the wheel are NOT your private concern, but a public risk. What you
> do as a driver could well impact MY health and happiness, none of us drives
> in a vacuum.
>
> And if all of these millions of little black boxes serve to make our
> roadways in any way safer, I'm all for it.
>
> dwight
> www.tfrog93.com

What you all are missing in the "rights" discussion is that "...the people have the
right to be secure in their papers and personal effects..."

Data that you created is being stored without your consent and will be accessed
without your consent.

WindsorFox wrote:

> Ashton Crusher wrote:
> > On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 08:36:00 -0400, "dwight" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>>> Like one of the author opined. If you are driving right and obeying the
> >>>> law, these types of devices are your friend. If you caused an accident,
> >>>> you
> >>>> caused an accident...period. This is an investigative tool not an
> >>>> invasion
> >>>> of privacy, that is why it's limited to 20 seconds. Since it's only
> >>>> recording automobile conditions, presumably on public streets, there is no
> >>>> expectation of privacy.
> >>>>
> >>> Since it's YOUR car you should have the right to have or not have the
> >>> device. When you are on public streets would you agree that if the
> >>> gvt wanted to they could make you run around naked because "presumably
> >>> on public streets, there is no expectation of privacy."
> >>>
> >>> You sound like just another sheep....
> >> In Pennsylvania (at least), driving is a privilege, not a right.
> >
> > Driving is a right in every state. Like many rights the courts have
> > ruled that there are legitimate reasons that there may be some
> > controls as long as the basic underlying right remains. I doubt you
> > can find any state where the issuance of a license is at the whim of
> > the state and where a licence can be revoked for no articulated
> > reason. Do you have a right to breathe the air? I'll assume you
> > think you do yet the gvt has put many restrictions on that right
> > including in many locations outlawing your right to exhale cigarette
> > smoke in certain locations. SO does that make breathing a privilege?
> >
> >
> > You may own
> >> the car, but you do not have an inherant right to drive it on public
> >> roadways.
> >>
> >
> > Yes I do.
> >
>
> No you do not. In Louisiana the law specifically states driving is a
> privilege that may be removed at any time. I know a lot of states laws
> specifically read that way as well. In an IM someone tells me that Ohio
> is the same way, specifically called a privilege, not a right.

"...." > wrote in message
...
> Dwight,
> weren't you the guy following a Shelby at 100mph?
>
> The fact that they are only recording 20 seconds and a few parameters now,
> does
> not mean that they won't record lots of other things for longer periods of
> time.
> I have a solid state box at work that records certain parameters for up to
> 3
> months! Maybe in the future someone will call in your tags as going
> 100mph on
> some stretch and the police or GEICO will download all your "flight data"
> for
> the last month and issue you a ticket(s) and drop your insurance.

We already have speed traps, both physical and electronic. And any citizen
can make a simple call and report a black Mustang doing 100mph. So what?

I know I'm doing 100. If I were all that worried about a little black box
ratting me out, I'd stick to the speed limit and probably drive a Civic.

I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility, and if I screw up, everyone
"should" know about it.

dwight

(By the way, some concerned citizen dropped a dime when I flicked a
cigarette butt out the car window. I got a "stern warning" from the state. I
no longer flick my cigarettes out the window. That was some 12 years ago.)

"...." > wrote in message
...
> What you all are missing in the "rights" discussion is that "...the people
> have the
> right to be secure in their papers and personal effects..."
>
> Data that you created is being stored without your consent and will be
> accessed
> without your consent.

Tsk, tsk.

I would agree with that right. But whether or not it pertains explicitely to
a new automobile that is operated on public roadways is best left to first
year law students.

The fact is, as has been pointed out elsewhere, that this data is NOT being
stored without your consent, nor will be it accessed without your consent.
You KNOW it's in new cars, you KNOW what it does, and you KNOW who's likely
to look at it. Ergo, ipso facto and thus, when you buy a new car, you KNOW
all about it.

If you choose to NOT have such data collected and reviewed, then I have a
lovely 1993 GT convertible that you can have for cheap. I guarantee that it
has no little black box.

dwight
www.tfrog93.com

> WindsorFox wrote:
>
>> Ashton Crusher wrote:
>> > On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 08:36:00 -0400, "dwight" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>>> Like one of the author opined. If you are driving right and obeying
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> law, these types of devices are your friend. If you caused an
>> >>>> accident,
>> >>>> you
>> >>>> caused an accident...period. This is an investigative tool not an
>> >>>> invasion
>> >>>> of privacy, that is why it's limited to 20 seconds. Since it's only
>> >>>> recording automobile conditions, presumably on public streets, there
>> >>>> is no
>> >>>> expectation of privacy.
>> >>>>
>> >>> Since it's YOUR car you should have the right to have or not have the
>> >>> device. When you are on public streets would you agree that if the
>> >>> gvt wanted to they could make you run around naked because
>> >>> "presumably
>> >>> on public streets, there is no expectation of privacy."
>> >>>
>> >>> You sound like just another sheep....
>> >> In Pennsylvania (at least), driving is a privilege, not a right.
>> >
>> > Driving is a right in every state. Like many rights the courts have
>> > ruled that there are legitimate reasons that there may be some
>> > controls as long as the basic underlying right remains. I doubt you
>> > can find any state where the issuance of a license is at the whim of
>> > the state and where a licence can be revoked for no articulated
>> > reason. Do you have a right to breathe the air? I'll assume you
>> > think you do yet the gvt has put many restrictions on that right
>> > including in many locations outlawing your right to exhale cigarette
>> > smoke in certain locations. SO does that make breathing a privilege?
>> >
>> >
>> > You may own
>> >> the car, but you do not have an inherant right to drive it on public
>> >> roadways.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Yes I do.
>> >
>>
>> No you do not. In Louisiana the law specifically states driving is a
>> privilege that may be removed at any time. I know a lot of states laws
>> specifically read that way as well. In an IM someone tells me that Ohio
>> is the same way, specifically called a privilege, not a right.
>

This has been an interesting conversation. Many of you understand that the
black box constitutes nothing more than a data recorder for events to get to
the truth and other see it as in invasion. I think most of you know where
I come down on this. I'm in favor of the truth. Sometimes that is good
sometimes it's not. It depends on your perspective. I would agree that a
device such as a GPS locator built into your car that can track your
presence without your knowledge is a clear invasion of your privacy, even if
you are driving on public streets. Likewise if it was recording video or
audio of conversations and broadcasting that without my consent, that would
be a clear violation of my rights.

This box, which gathers driving parameters for use in a post mortum event is
not. Why? Because that data is yours, it does not belong to the
government. It does not belong to the state, if your insurance pays out a
claim, then it becomes the property of the insurance company. Having made
that point, no one can have access to that data without due process, i.e. a
court order. This oversight is your protectection against unlawful search
and seizure. In the case of your insurance company, this becomes a
contractural issue between you and the company. If you feel that the
information is dangerous to your case, and you attempt to destroy it, you
may be guilty of obstruction, since destroying evidence is what constitutes
that kind of a charge.

For me, I bought a 1969 Mustang to do my playing in. This way I can do what
I want and I don't have the state telling me what I cannot do to it. I
don't have to worry that some mfg's gadget is activated and spying on me.
I'm not as paranoid as some of the respondants on this, but I do understand
both sides of the issue. And if some clown runs a red light and injures a
member of my family and that little black box will prove they sped up
instead of slowing down, then I will want that information to be available.


"...." > wrote in message
...
> The risks outweigh the benefits.
>
> Antique Muscle wrote:
>
> > I wish I could have gotten the information off of my son's 1995 Camaro
after
> > he totaled it out. This is not so that I can punish him, is was so that
I
> > could prove to those dumbass cops that he wasn't horsing around when he
was
> > almost killed by a hit and run driver. The cops in this case just
assumed
> > that he was acting out because 1. he was a teenager 2. he was in a red
> > Camaro, 3. he had two girls in the car. I was able to take evidence
back to
> > them to show that he was forced off the road and that their police
report
> > made no sense at all. In fact, it was impossible for the car to do what
he
> > says it would do in the police report. They were still not willing to
> > change the report. I have has other similar experiences. You see, in
cases
> > like these, these event recorders expose the truth. The truth, should
never
> > be an issue.
> >
> > Like one of the author opined. If you are driving right and obeying the
> > law, these types of devices are your friend. If you caused an accident,
you
> > caused an accident...period. This is an investigative tool not an
invasion
> > of privacy, that is why it's limited to 20 seconds. Since it's only
> > recording automobile conditions, presumably on public streets, there is
no
> > expectation of privacy.
> >
> > "...." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Knock wood. I haven't had a speeding ticket in 29 years. That still
> > doesn't
> > > make the little spy any more palatable. Even boring sane drivers such
as
> > > myself are at risk. This is a way bigger deal than the NSA screening
> > offshore
> > > telephone calls by computer for terrorist leaks. And here we have
this
> > little
> > > frankenstein spying on American citizens creating a little digital
> > records.
> > >
> > > Right now, explain how this would deter street racing? It only
records
> > the
> > > last 20 seconds or so before air bag deployment. So idiots can race
all
> > over
> > > creation as long as they do not crash there will not be a trace.
> > >
> > > There will be ever more increasing parameters recorded. Speed.
Average
> > > speed. GPS location. Percent of time driving after dark. Miles to
work.
> > > Etc. Wait till GEICO figures out how to get their hands on this data.
Want
> > > insurance? Let us download you little black box, then we'll tell you
how
> > much
> > > *extra* we are going to charge you....Won't give us the info...? No
> > insurance.
> > > No insurance...no financing.
> > >
> > > Now suppose they start recording long periods. You take your car to a
> > track
> > > day or drag strip for a sanctioned event...on the way home, under the
> > speed
> > > limit, you get in an accident not your fault. The court gets its
hands
> > onthe
> > > box and WOW, look at that you had your foot flat on the floor 100
times in
> > the
> > > last 24 hours (on the track)..."balif lock him/her up forever"
> > >
> > > Jim Warman wrote:
> > >
> > > > EDR is a relatively new acronym.... Event data recorders have been
built
> > > > into restraint contol modules for many years. The equipment to
retrieve
> > the
> > > > data is still quite expensive and there are legal ramifications to
the
> > > > recovery of this data,,,,
> > > >
> > > > However, I refuse to be the cause of an accident if I can possibly
avoid
> > > > it.... However, if I drive like I can cause an accident, I would be
> > worried
> > > > that the EDR can hang me by the nuts. There is no way, at the
dealership
> > > > l;evel, for us to disable this event recorder.... Even if it were
> > possible,
> > > > I doubt that I would because of little peckerheads that think street
> > racing
> > > > or "getting frisky" are part and parcel of vehicle operation.
> > > >
> > > > Life's a bitch... deal with it.
> > > >
> > > > "...." > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Not a single sales person knew what an EDR was not to speak of
> > disabling
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > an Event Data Recorder (EDR) is wired into your cars air bag
system.
> > In
> > > > > the event of an air bag deployment this litttle solid state spy
will
> > > > > record your speed, seat belt usage for all passengers, brake and
> > > > > throttle position and some mfr's record even more parameters.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am told the 07 Mustang's "little spy" is located under the
console.
> > > > > does anyone know how or who might be able to disable it?
> > > > >
> > > > > These little boxes are in most late models...the data in them is
> > going
> > > > > to be a tort attorney's and insurance co's wet dream.
> > > > >
> > > > > Norm
> > > > >
> > >
>

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 00:38:48 GMT, "Antique Muscle" >
puked:

>I wish I could have gotten the information off of my son's 1995 Camaro after
>he totaled it out. This is not so that I can punish him, is was so that I
>could prove to those dumbass cops that he wasn't horsing around when he was
>almost killed by a hit and run driver. The cops in this case just assumed
>that he was acting out because 1. he was a teenager 2. he was in a red
>Camaro, 3. he had two girls in the car. I was able to take evidence back to
>them to show that he was forced off the road and that their police report
>made no sense at all. In fact, it was impossible for the car to do what he
>says it would do in the police report. They were still not willing to
>change the report. I have has other similar experiences. You see, in cases
>like these, these event recorders expose the truth. The truth, should never
>be an issue.
>
>Like one of the author opined. If you are driving right and obeying the
>law, these types of devices are your friend. If you caused an accident, you
>caused an accident...period. This is an investigative tool not an invasion
>of privacy, that is why it's limited to 20 seconds. Since it's only
>recording automobile conditions, presumably on public streets, there is no
>expectation of privacy.

But wouldn't it be nice to know where it was? Like if you caused an
accident using bad judgement, you could smash it with a hammer to
'reset' it?
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 08:36:00 -0400, "dwight" >
puked:

>"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>Like one of the author opined. If you are driving right and obeying the
>>>law, these types of devices are your friend. If you caused an accident,
>>>you
>>>caused an accident...period. This is an investigative tool not an
>>>invasion
>>>of privacy, that is why it's limited to 20 seconds. Since it's only
>>>recording automobile conditions, presumably on public streets, there is no
>>>expectation of privacy.
>>>
>>
>> Since it's YOUR car you should have the right to have or not have the
>> device. When you are on public streets would you agree that if the
>> gvt wanted to they could make you run around naked because "presumably
>> on public streets, there is no expectation of privacy."
>>
>> You sound like just another sheep....
>
>In Pennsylvania (at least), driving is a privilege, not a right. You may own
>the car, but you do not have an inherant right to drive it on public
>roadways.
>
>If you DO drive it on public roadways, you've got a TON of rules and
>regulations (plus optional common courtesies) that must be followed. If
>you've ever been a student of modern commuter traffic, you would marvel that
>it works at all (99.9% of the time).
>
>The first thing that happens in any plane crash, from a 747 to a Cessna, is
>the opening of the black box, to help in finding out exactly what happened
>to cause the crash. The hope here is NOT that the crash can be blamed on the
>pilot, but that the answers will help avoid future crashes in similar
>circumstances. Now, if the pilot DID screw up, I think we'd all like to know
>about it.
>
>A similar little black box in my car wouldn't bother me in the slightest. In
>fact, I welcome it; in the event that there IS an incident, I trust that it
>would back me up, not point a finger of blame. I'm not worried. Yes, I like
>to drive somewhat faster than posted speed limits, but how often is that
>single element the cause of a crash?
>
>But go ahead, disconnect your little black box. If you're all that worried
>about "government interference in your private life," stay home. Once you
>take your privately-owned automobile out onto a public roadway, your actions
>behind the wheel are NOT your private concern, but a public risk. What you
>do as a driver could well impact MY health and happiness, none of us drives
>in a vacuum.
>
>And if all of these millions of little black boxes serve to make our
>roadways in any way safer, I'm all for it.
>
>dwight
>www.tfrog93.com
>

We have the right not to incriminate ourself
We have the right to face our accuser (Ok, that one I got from Star
Trek)
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

It is just one more hammer for big brother to hit you over the head with.

Furthermore, those of you who think that you own the data because you
created it, couldn't be further from the truth. Certain authorities already
have complete access to this without your consent and without notifying you
per enabling legislation, for everyone else it might take a day to get a
court order to gain access.


And IF you did actually own it, you should be able to turn it off.

"...." wrote:

> Not a single sales person knew what an EDR was not to speak of disabling
> it.
>
> an Event Data Recorder (EDR) is wired into your cars air bag system. In
> the event of an air bag deployment this litttle solid state spy will
> record your speed, seat belt usage for all passengers, brake and
> throttle position and some mfr's record even more parameters.
>
> I am told the 07 Mustang's "little spy" is located under the console.
> does anyone know how or who might be able to disable it?
>
> These little boxes are in most late models...the data in them is going
> to be a tort attorney's and insurance co's wet dream.
>
> Norm

"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
...
>
> For those of us who still believe in the principles the US was founded
> on (this lets you out), yes, it is so bad to have the gvt subjecting
> us to MORE scrutiny. Every day there is more and more scrutiny by our
> more and more oppressive gvt. You people are like the frog in a pot
> of cold water that's put on the fire. You sit there without noticing
> that the cold water is getting hot till you wind up cooked. Our
> freedoms have never been under greater assault then they are at the
> moment and you and others sit on the sidelines cheering on the
> assault.

I think you're confusing the Constitution with your driver's manual.

Where are your precious rights (or mine, for that matter), when you operate
a motor vehicle on public roads? Please - point me to them.

What is it? The so-called Right to Privacy? Non-existant in this situation.
Maybe you want to plead the Fifth, to claim that your car should not be
forced to testify against you? No, sorry, doesn't apply here.

Do you own an EZPass? How about a cellphone? Ever drive through radar or a
traffic camera? How is it that your every movement is tracked and has been
tracked for years, but you rail about a little black box in new cars?

You're worried about scrutiny? Do you have any idea how many video cameras
point at you though the course of a day?

What freedom is it, exactly, that is under attack by this little black box?
I'd really like to know.

Are there any legal scholars in this newsgroup that can help?

dwight
www.tfrog93.com

The EDR keeps track of everything you do legal or illegal. If you all
are so worried about getting caught for driving illegally don't do it?
When you drive down the road you risk running into speed traps or
getting caught on cameras. If this "black box" makes you so worried
about getting caught then its the slow lane for you. If you speed and
are worried about getting into an accident, maybe you should think
about what you are doing instead of the other retards on the road. As
long as this black box is only used when I'm in an accident, then I'm
not worried. Now if it's gonna send in data every time I speed that's
gonna suck. But mainly if you are worried about your data you should
either grow a pair and be ready for the consequences or drive
legally.
Now I do realize that some people can't drive over 30 without crashing
but what about all of us who live on an old county blacktop that like
to open her up every once in a while? I've done my share of speeding
and drag racing and the 2 times my car got hit it was parked. So as
long as these black boxes are only used in the event of an accident I
have no problem, but if they are gonna send in data continuously I'm
gonna stick with older cars, they are better anyway!