civic oil filters redux

On Dec 7, 12:26 am, jim beam > wrote:
> Bob Jones wrote:
> >> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda
> >> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of the
> >> high quality aftermarket filters i've used, don't. therefore, while i'm a
> >> pretty hard core "honda oem" kinda guy, honda oem filters are something i
> >> rule out. instead, i buy aftermarket japanese online from places like
> >> alleurasianautoparts.com or i buy champion filters from walmart - which
> >> come from the same factory as the $10 mobil 1 filters.
>
> >> don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside.
>
> > I use Fram ExtraGuard. They never leak even I replace it every 10K miles.
> > Advance Auto's Totalgrip (same as Purolator Premium) always leak around the
> > gasket.
>
> i'm not talking about leaking around the gasket - i'm talking about the
> drainback valve inside the filter. fram always allow the oil to drain
> back, and all the crud that the filter is supposed to trap and retain,
> get recirculated back into the engine.
>
> you'll never notice this if you warm the engine and change the filter
> immediately, as most people do. but if you warm the engine, then wait
> 30-60 minutes, you'll find the fram filter completely empty because the
> valve has leaked. the filter should be full, and stay full because the
> valve should only allow oil one way.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I just noticed that on my last couple of filters, that the oil light
was staying on a bit longer when I started the engine in the AM than
it used to. I figure, had to be the drainback valve letting the oil
drain back.

On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article ,
"Tegger" > wrote:

> jim beam > wrote in news:3uydnX-
> :
>
>> z wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if
>>> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time
>>> to fill up and pass the oil along.
>>>
>>
>> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda
>> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%.
>
>
>
> And my experience is precisely the opposite of yours (over 14 years). I did
> have one that was bad, but only that one.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/peelback.jpg
> (This is one of the old, larger filters; the new ones have an improved
> flap)
>
> Those drainback flaps really do work.
>
> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end up. See
> how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of the medium? Now
> poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes to push the drainback
> flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe will fill instantly. Try
> it.
>
> There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with FRAM's drainback flap as
> installed in OEM Honda filters.
>
>
>
>>
>> don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside.
>>
>
>
>
> OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM.
>

Much as I hate to admit it, I have to go with Beam on this one. I use Honda
OEM filters exclusively on the Hondas and Nissan OEM filters exclusively on
the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single filter (old style or new)
that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30 minutes of being stood open end
up.

E Meyer > wrote in
:

>
>
>
> On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article ,
> "Tegger" > wrote:
>

>>
>>
>> OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM.
>>
>
> Much as I hate to admit it, I have to go with Beam on this one. I use
> Honda OEM filters exclusively on the Hondas




I use OEM Honda also. Mine just happen to be made by FRAM to Honda's
specs. Honda Canada and its dealers use millions of these FRAM-built
filters every year.

We trust Honda's judgement on so many issues. Why not on their choice of
filter manufacturer?




> and Nissan OEM filters
> exclusively on the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single
> filter (old style or new) that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30
> minutes of being stood open end up.
>
>
>


I've never left a used OEM filter standing open-end up for more than a
half-hour. But regardless, the center pipe does not fill during that
half-hour until I stick a screwdriver in the inlet hole to push the
drainback flap open, at which point the center pipe fills instantly.

Aftermarket FRAMs and other makes tend fill the center pipe almost
immediately, even with the drainback flap left untouched. I attribute
this to a poor-quality medium that flows too easily.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger ) writes:
> z > wrote in news:a4490c91-25e2-4600-9f3c-
> :
>
>> went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer
>> noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda
>> oil filters for a 92 civic (now with added B16, same filter, right?)
>> One is fatter and says honeywell made in canada
>
>
>
> That's FRAM. FRAM has made Honda's OEM filters for Canada for at least
> 15 years. OEM is all I ever use.
>
> If your filters are bigger than 2.5" diameter they're the old-style
> filter that was phased out five years ago,
>
>
>
>> and the other is
>> smaller and says filtec
>
>
> Filtech. Don't forget the "H".
>
>
>> and is made in Japan (I might have some of
>> this backwards I'm working from memory here). Did they change over?
>
>
>
> Yep. Smaller is newer.
>
>
>> It's annoying because now I have to go buy another cup type filter
>> wrench.
>
>
>
> Yep. The changeover cost me forty bucks for a new socket.
>
> The new, smaller 15400-PLM-A02 takes the new Honda socket 07AAA-PLCA100
> (which fits Toyota filter 90915-YZZF2 perfectly, by the way...). The
> aftermarket Flo-Tool #5 socket kinda fits, but you really have to force
> it into position, and even then it tends to slip.
>
> The old 15400-PT7-006 filter is bigger than 2.5" diameter. I used to use
> a MAC Tools OF8015 socket for that.
>


I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a filter
strap wrench. When I encountered the new tiny Kohler-12HP-type Honda OEM
filter, I just went out and got a used (very cheap) dirt bike motorcycle
tire tube (forget what size), and sectioned it, with a pair of scissors, into
what looks like 1.25" wide rubber bands. I stretched the newly created
bands over the pee-wee filter until my strap wrench fit. Worked like a charm.

People should be careful when installing the pee-wee OEM Honda oil filter,
there is a chance of bottoming the metal of the filter-can against the filter
base and damaging the filter base.


>
>>
>> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if
>> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time
>> to fill up and pass the oil along.
>>
>>
>
>
> I'm not sure the smaller filter has made one whit of difference to
> engine life.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

(M.A. Stewart) wrote in
:

> Tegger ) writes:

>>
>
>
> I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a
> filter strap wrench.



I have one of those too. Good way to break the oil pressure switch on my
car, which is exactly what I did before I got smart and bought the socket-
type. Not enough room at the back of the B-block for the strap type.

I have six or seven different types of oil filter wrenches, accumulated
over the years.



> When I encountered the new tiny Kohler-12HP-type
> Honda OEM filter, I just went out and got a used (very cheap) dirt
> bike motorcycle tire tube (forget what size), and sectioned it, with a
> pair of scissors, into what looks like 1.25" wide rubber bands. I
> stretched the newly created bands over the pee-wee filter until my
> strap wrench fit. Worked like a charm.
>
> People should be careful when installing the pee-wee OEM Honda oil
> filter, there is a chance of bottoming the metal of the filter-can
> against the filter base and damaging the filter base.



So I've heard. And I wonder about that assertion. I have never personally
even come close to bottoming out the new OEM filter.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in news:3uydnX-
> :
>
>> z wrote:
>
>>
>>> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if
>>> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time
>>> to fill up and pass the oil along.
>>>
>> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda
>> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%.
>
>
>
> And my experience is precisely the opposite of yours (over 14 years). I did
> have one that was bad, but only that one.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/peelback.jpg
> (This is one of the old, larger filters; the new ones have an improved
> flap)
>
> Those drainback flaps really do work.
>
> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end up. See
> how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of the medium? Now
> poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes to push the drainback
> flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe will fill instantly. Try
> it.

the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is oil in
the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely clogged!

what is supposed to happen is that the oil gets fed from the outside of
the filter, through the one-way valve, through the filter paper, and out
through the center pipe. since the filter is mounted horizontally, oil
level should be retained at just under half, since that is where the
exit hole is. once removed and held vertically, and with unclogged
medium, the stuff left on the outside should drain to the center.

BUT, with the leaky drainback valve, the filter empties to zero. my
experience of the fram oem filters is that if you leave the engine to
stand for a while before changing the oil, the filter empties
completely, so much so that there's zero spillage when you remove it.
and /nothing/ drains into the center pipe.

again, most people don't notice this because they don't let the motor
stand - they simply run the motor, then drain and remove the filter, as
is oil changing tradition. even leaky filters never have time to drain
and show themselves in that situation.

>
> There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with FRAM's drainback flap as
> installed in OEM Honda filters.

i wish it weren't true, but i have 5 years of honda oem filter
experience saying the opposite. i used to let the motor stand before
draining /because/ the filter would drain and reduce spillage. and it
worked every single time. it's only when i started using aftermarket
filters [the original size, not the small ones that honda uses now] and
noticing that they /didn't/ drain, that i figured out what was
happening. duh.


>
>
>
>> don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside.
>>
>
>
>
> OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM.
>
>

E Meyer wrote:
>
>
> On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article ,
> "Tegger" > wrote:
>
>> jim beam > wrote in news:3uydnX-
>> :
>>
>>> z wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if
>>>> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time
>>>> to fill up and pass the oil along.
>>>>
>>> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda
>>> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%.
>>
>>
>> And my experience is precisely the opposite of yours (over 14 years). I did
>> have one that was bad, but only that one.
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/peelback.jpg
>> (This is one of the old, larger filters; the new ones have an improved
>> flap)
>>
>> Those drainback flaps really do work.
>>
>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end up. See
>> how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of the medium? Now
>> poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes to push the drainback
>> flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe will fill instantly. Try
>> it.
>>
>> There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with FRAM's drainback flap as
>> installed in OEM Honda filters.
>>
>>
>>
>>> don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside.
>>>
>>
>>
>> OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM.
>>
>
> Much as I hate to admit it, I have to go with Beam on this one. I use Honda
> OEM filters exclusively on the Hondas and Nissan OEM filters exclusively on
> the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single filter (old style or new)
> that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30 minutes of being stood open end
> up.
>
>


that's not it though - if the drainback valve is leaking, and the motor
is allowed to stand for a while before changing, the filter empties so
the center pipe does /not/ fill - because the filter is empty.

Tegger wrote:
> E Meyer > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article ,
>> "Tegger" > wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM.
>>>
>> Much as I hate to admit it, I have to go with Beam on this one. I use
>> Honda OEM filters exclusively on the Hondas
>
>
>
>
> I use OEM Honda also. Mine just happen to be made by FRAM to Honda's
> specs. Honda Canada and its dealers use millions of these FRAM-built
> filters every year.
>
> We trust Honda's judgement on so many issues. Why not on their choice of
> filter manufacturer?

because in this case, the q.c. is not there. filters are batch tested.
and they're manufactured and distributed here in north america.
much easier for the locals to test the box of "samples" the manufacturer
gives you once in a while than to rigorously test random samples
regularly throughout the supply chain.

>
>
>
>
>> and Nissan OEM filters
>> exclusively on the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single
>> filter (old style or new) that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30
>> minutes of being stood open end up.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> I've never left a used OEM filter standing open-end up for more than a
> half-hour. But regardless, the center pipe does not fill during that
> half-hour until I stick a screwdriver in the inlet hole to push the
> drainback flap open, at which point the center pipe fills instantly.
>
> Aftermarket FRAMs and other makes tend fill the center pipe almost
> immediately, even with the drainback flap left untouched. I attribute
> this to a poor-quality medium that flows too easily.

could be. or slow flow could be a poor medium that's too easily
clogged. good filters have media that have high debris capacity and
they achieve this with a graduated pore size depending on medium depth.
and they tend to flow very well. a cheapo medium is shallow with
small pores - once clogged, they're clogged, and no flow.

jim beam > wrote in
:

> Tegger wrote:

>>
>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end
>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of
>> the medium? Now poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes to
>> push the drainback flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe
>> will fill instantly. Try it.
>
> the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is oil
> in the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely clogged!




Then the OEM Toyota ones I buy are bad too. They also will not fill the
center pipe until you push the (black rubber) drainback flap out of the way
first, at which point the center pipe fills instantly.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam > wrote in
t:

..
>
> you'll never notice this if you warm the engine and change the filter
> immediately, as most people do. but if you warm the engine, then wait
> 30-60 minutes, you'll find the fram filter completely empty because
> the valve has leaked. the filter should be full, and stay full
> because the valve should only allow oil one way.
>



Unless the filter medium is too "open", which is true of FRAM's and
others' cheap aftermarket filters.

The filter medium must allow partial vacuum to be held in order to keep the
oil inside the dirty side of the filter so it will be full for next time
you start the car. This is fundamental to oil filter operation. The
drainback flap provides one seal, the filter medium provides the other.

If the filter medium did not provide its own sealing, the oil would drain
out through the medium even in the presence of an effective anti-drainback
flap.

Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing he
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/