Timing Belt Tension Problems

"Elle" > wrote in message
news
> "Tegger" > wrote
> Re the photos at
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html
> > I had a look at the photos on your site.
> >
> > Something does not look right.
> >
> > See how the tensioner has a kidney-shaped hole in it?
> > You'll notice the
> > curve of the hole is axial to the pivot hole shown to the
> > right of the
> > photos.
> >
> > The spring is shown extending radially from the tensioner.
> > This is surely
> > incorrect: the spring cannot operate in this orientation.
> > The spring should
> > be rotated 90 degrees either one way or the other from its
> > current
> > position. In other words, it should be TANGENT to the
> > tensioner.
>
> My photo-taking bad: The new tensioner actually now
> installed on my Honda does have the spring "acting"
> tangentially. What I photographed was a "mock-up" using the
> old tensioner and old spring, thrown together hastily with
> no attention to detail.
>
> I checked several Hondas at the junkyard yesterday. As far
> as the spring orientation is concerned, these Hondas'
> tensioner installations look like my Honda's.
>
> > The purpose of the spring is to pull the tensioner away
> > from the
> > crankshaft, pulling the belt with it. The spring must be
> > AXIAL to the
> > crank, but TANGENT to the tensioner.
> >
> > See this pic:
> > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/tensioner.pdf
>
> I can follow this drawing very easily. Thank you. What you
> labeled the "pivot point" is where I may have messed up.
> While I wondered about that "pivot point" hole opposite
> where the spring attaches, I did not figure out that it was
> a pivot point.
>
> At this point I have been searching for instructions
> specifically on "tensioner installation," because none of my
> FS manuals say anything about looking for this peg and
> hanging the tensioner on it... It's not like this peg is
> easy to notice, given the tightness of this space. Nothing
> in the newsgroup archives mentions this, either. I guess it
> should have been obvious that the other, larger hole does
> have a function.
>
> I think the only question now is whether I should go back in
> there, check everything, and follow the steps for tensioning
> again, this time paying more attention to the peg etc.
> Before starting the car a few days ago, I rotate the
> crankshaft about three times and watched the TB. Also, it's
> been 150 miles of problem-free driving since then.
>
> Admittedly I can probably get back in there and out again in
> a morning at this point.
>
> Or maybe I can just take the upper timing cover off and feel
> to see if the spring is in tension? I think I was getting
> away with this at the junkyard yesterday.
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
>
This was like one of those movies, where the pilot becomes incapacitated and
the controller has someone take control of the plane and then talks her down
to the runway. Glad things worked out. When I worked on these things in
the 1970s, there was a hole in the cover, where you could loosen the
tensioner clamp bolt, and retension it without removing the cover and other
parts. This hole is still present in my 1999, but you have to be brave to
retension one of these things, without being able to see or feel the belt.

Saludos cordiales,

Earle



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Earle Horton wrote:
> "Elle" > wrote in message
> news
>> "Tegger" > wrote
>> Re the photos at
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html
>>> I had a look at the photos on your site.
>>>
>>> Something does not look right.
>>>
>>> See how the tensioner has a kidney-shaped hole in it?
>>> You'll notice the
>>> curve of the hole is axial to the pivot hole shown to the
>>> right of the
>>> photos.
>>>
>>> The spring is shown extending radially from the tensioner.
>>> This is surely
>>> incorrect: the spring cannot operate in this orientation.
>>> The spring should
>>> be rotated 90 degrees either one way or the other from its
>>> current
>>> position. In other words, it should be TANGENT to the
>>> tensioner.
>> My photo-taking bad: The new tensioner actually now
>> installed on my Honda does have the spring "acting"
>> tangentially. What I photographed was a "mock-up" using the
>> old tensioner and old spring, thrown together hastily with
>> no attention to detail.
>>
>> I checked several Hondas at the junkyard yesterday. As far
>> as the spring orientation is concerned, these Hondas'
>> tensioner installations look like my Honda's.
>>
>>> The purpose of the spring is to pull the tensioner away
>>> from the
>>> crankshaft, pulling the belt with it. The spring must be
>>> AXIAL to the
>>> crank, but TANGENT to the tensioner.
>>>
>>> See this pic:
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/tensioner.pdf
>> I can follow this drawing very easily. Thank you. What you
>> labeled the "pivot point" is where I may have messed up.
>> While I wondered about that "pivot point" hole opposite
>> where the spring attaches, I did not figure out that it was
>> a pivot point.
>>
>> At this point I have been searching for instructions
>> specifically on "tensioner installation," because none of my
>> FS manuals say anything about looking for this peg and
>> hanging the tensioner on it... It's not like this peg is
>> easy to notice, given the tightness of this space. Nothing
>> in the newsgroup archives mentions this, either. I guess it
>> should have been obvious that the other, larger hole does
>> have a function.
>>
>> I think the only question now is whether I should go back in
>> there, check everything, and follow the steps for tensioning
>> again, this time paying more attention to the peg etc.
>> Before starting the car a few days ago, I rotate the
>> crankshaft about three times and watched the TB. Also, it's
>> been 150 miles of problem-free driving since then.
>>
>> Admittedly I can probably get back in there and out again in
>> a morning at this point.
>>
>> Or maybe I can just take the upper timing cover off and feel
>> to see if the spring is in tension? I think I was getting
>> away with this at the junkyard yesterday.
>>
>> Thanks again for your help.
>>
>>
> This was like one of those movies, where the pilot becomes incapacitated and
> the controller has someone take control of the plane and then talks her down
> to the runway. Glad things worked out. When I worked on these things in
> the 1970s, there was a hole in the cover, where you could loosen the
> tensioner clamp bolt, and retension it without removing the cover and other
> parts. This hole is still present in my 1999, but you have to be brave to
> retension one of these things, without being able to see or feel the belt.

and yet, it works perfectly if you follow the procedure in the book!


>
> Saludos cordiales,
>
> Earle
>
>
>

"Elle" > wrote in newsfeoi.10420
:


>
> I think the only question now is whether I should go back in
> there, check everything, and follow the steps for tensioning
> again, this time paying more attention to the peg etc.
> Before starting the car a few days ago, I rotate the
> crankshaft about three times and watched the TB. Also, it's
> been 150 miles of problem-free driving since then.
>
> Admittedly I can probably get back in there and out again in
> a morning at this point.
>
> Or maybe I can just take the upper timing cover off and feel
> to see if the spring is in tension?



Take the upper timing cover off. Put a socket on the crank bolt, and put
all the slack on the tensioner side by applying some counterclockwise
pressure on the socket.

How much slack is there? If there appears not enough slack to make the belt
move much away from the crank timing belt pulley teeth, then you're fine.
Remember that the crank timing belt pulley is very small, and presents the
most danger for a jumped belt. If you can't decide if there's enough slack
to make the belt jump the crank pulley, then you'll need to take enough
apart that you can see the crank timing belt pulley.

Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases to have any
function. If the tension is OK, just leave everything alone.

If you can't decide if the amount of slack you have is OK, leave the upper
timing cover off and drive to a garage. Ask a tech there for his
professional opinion.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger > wrote in
:


>
> Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases to have any
> function.


In fact, once the tensioner bolt is tightened, you could even remove the
spring if you wanted to.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Elle" > wrote in newsfeoi.10420
:

> "Tegger" > wrote

>>
>> See this pic:
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/tensioner.pdf
>
> I can follow this drawing very easily. Thank you.



I just noticed I have the tensioner spring mislabeled as "tensioner" in
that diagram.

I'll fix that later today.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger > wrote
>> Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases
>> to have any
>> function.
>
>
> In fact, once the tensioner bolt is tightened, you could
> even remove the
> spring if you wanted to.

I appreciate this information. I was unsure of how critical
it was to have the tensioner's larger hole (= the one
opposite where the spring attaches) on the peg. Also, I'd
never had tension on the spring (in this past week of
travails, albeit mostly good learning ones). Not knowing any
better, this morning in 3.5 hours I went in there, got the
tensioner properly "pegged," got the spring properly tensed,
set the tension, rotated the crank a few times and watched
for smooth operation and neither too much slack nor too much
tightness, buttoned her up, checked the timing. All is well.
Thanks so much for sticking with me on this one.

I am getting really fast at changing timing belts.

I am curious: Where did you get the PDF drawing?

"Elle" > wrote in news:j2toi.10554
:

> Tegger > wrote
>>> Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases
>>> to have any
>>> function.
>>
>>
>> In fact, once the tensioner bolt is tightened, you could
>> even remove the
>> spring if you wanted to.
>
> I appreciate this information. I was unsure of how critical
> it was to have the tensioner's larger hole (= the one
> opposite where the spring attaches) on the peg.



That's extremely important. The tensioner will not function unless it
can pivot on that peg.



> Also, I'd
> never had tension on the spring (in this past week of
> travails, albeit mostly good learning ones). Not knowing any
> better, this morning in 3.5 hours I went in there, got the
> tensioner properly "pegged," got the spring properly tensed,
> set the tension, rotated the crank a few times and watched
> for smooth operation and neither too much slack nor too much
> tightness, buttoned her up, checked the timing. All is well.
> Thanks so much for sticking with me on this one.



Just glad to help.

I was also kind of curious what the problem was. As I said earlier, it's
easy to assemble the tensioner incorrectly, since it can go together
several different ways.


>
> I am getting really fast at changing timing belts.


Experience counts. The first time I removed a Macpherson strut it took
me over an hour. The second time it was 20 minutes. By the third time I
was down to five minutes.


>
> I am curious: Where did you get the PDF drawing?
>
>


It's just a (bad) scan from my '91 Integra's shop manual. I then added
the text in a graphics program.

I had the scan resolution set very low without noticing it, which is why
it's so bad. I corrected the wrong text, but otherwise will leave this
one alone.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote
> That's extremely important. The tensioner will not
> function unless it
> can pivot on that peg.

By any chance do you mean the tensioner's //spring// will
not function unless the tensioner housing can pivot on the
peg? And if this is so, then given that you observed that,
"Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases to
have any function... you could even remove the spring if you
wanted... ," then the peg also only has a function during
this tension adjusting step, so it too could be removed?

>> I am curious: Where did you get the PDF drawing?
>
> It's just a (bad) scan from my '91 Integra's shop manual.
> I then added
> the text in a graphics program.
>
> I had the scan resolution set very low without noticing
> it, which is why
> it's so bad.

I think it's very helpful. My web site on this is garbage at
the moment. I will either take it down or re-do it. If I
re-do it, and if you do not mind, I may put the PDF file on
it. Okay?

I do not see this drawing at the UK site's "factory service"
manuals. Do you know whether the UK sites's manuals are
abbreviated ones? Plus there is no "tensioner replacement"
section; only an "adjusting TB tension" one. Does your Acura
shop manual have a "tensioner replacement" section?

Elle wrote:
> "Tegger" > wrote
>> That's extremely important. The tensioner will not
>> function unless it
>> can pivot on that peg.
>
> By any chance do you mean the tensioner's //spring// will
> not function unless the tensioner housing can pivot on the
> peg?

correct pivot action is essential to correct setup.

> And if this is so, then given that you observed that,
> "Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases to
> have any function... you could even remove the spring if you
> wanted... ," then the peg also only has a function during
> this tension adjusting step, so it too could be removed?

you should set the tension with the covers on, so you shouldn't be able
to remove anything.

>
>>> I am curious: Where did you get the PDF drawing?
>> It's just a (bad) scan from my '91 Integra's shop manual.
>> I then added
>> the text in a graphics program.
>>
>> I had the scan resolution set very low without noticing
>> it, which is why
>> it's so bad.
>
> I think it's very helpful. My web site on this is garbage at
> the moment. I will either take it down or re-do it. If I
> re-do it, and if you do not mind, I may put the PDF file on
> it. Okay?
>
> I do not see this drawing at the UK site's "factory service"
> manuals. Do you know whether the UK sites's manuals are
> abbreviated ones? Plus there is no "tensioner replacement"
> section; only an "adjusting TB tension" one. Does your Acura
> shop manual have a "tensioner replacement" section?
>
>

"Elle" > wrote in news:uMJoi.9584
:

> "Tegger" > wrote
>> That's extremely important. The tensioner will not
>> function unless it
>> can pivot on that peg.
>
> By any chance do you mean the tensioner's //spring// will
> not function unless the tensioner housing can pivot on the
> peg?


You could put it that way, yes.


But ultimately the result is the same either way, in that the tensioner
will not take up the slack of the belt if the tensioner is not properly
located on the peg.



> And if this is so, then given that you observed that,
> "Once the tensioner bolt is tightened, the spring ceases to
> have any function... you could even remove the spring if you
> wanted... ," then the peg also only has a function during
> this tension adjusting step, so it too could be removed?



Yes. The bolt you tighten is what holds the tensioner in place for
normal use. The spring just provides the initial preload on the belt.

My statement about removing the spring was intended as an illustration,
not as something you would actually want to do.



>
>>> I am curious: Where did you get the PDF drawing?
>>
>> It's just a (bad) scan from my '91 Integra's shop manual.
>> I then added
>> the text in a graphics program.
>>
>> I had the scan resolution set very low without noticing
>> it, which is why
>> it's so bad.
>
> I think it's very helpful. My web site on this is garbage at
> the moment. I will either take it down or re-do it. If I
> re-do it, and if you do not mind, I may put the PDF file on
> it. Okay?



It's yours. I just ask that you attribute the diagram to my site.


>
> I do not see this drawing at the UK site's "factory service"
> manuals. Do you know whether the UK sites's manuals are
> abbreviated ones? Plus there is no "tensioner replacement"
> section; only an "adjusting TB tension" one. Does your Acura
> shop manual have a "tensioner replacement" section?



No it doesn't. Mine only has an adjustment section. Plus a couple of
diagrams showing exploded views of the area that has the tensioner.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/