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What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 6th 14, 03:52 PM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On 3/6/2014 9:42 AM, Liam O'Connor wrote:
> LEGAL QUESTION:
> What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?
>
> DETAILS:
> The three multi-way STOP signs in question are easily viewed
> by pasting the following GPS coordinates into Google Maps:
> 37.291379,-121.958411
>
> The flagrantly illegal multi-way STOP signs are those facing
> each other on Llewellyn Ave, which is abutted at that point
> by Queens Ct.
>
> I live near that intersection, and I firmly believe that
> those multi-way stop signs can't possibly be legal.
>
> But, how do I prove that they were illegally placed?
> And, what is the process to have them removed, by law?
>
> MORE DETAILS:
> I believe that the people who authorized the placement of those
> two multi-way STOP signs themselved did not respect the law in
> their very act of illegally authorizing their placement.


The city will argue that the signs were not placed to control speed but
to try to get drivers to not use Latimer and Llewellyn to get to the
post office or to avoid the Hamilton/Winchester intersection. But even
if they were placed to control speed, the fact that using stop signs to
stop speeding is discouraged, it's not illegal.

It's likely that residents of that area lobbied for the stop signs when
the post office was moved from Latimer (east of Winchester) over to
Hamilton and Llewellyn.

Once ill-advised stop signs are installed it's extremely hard to get
them removed, but these stop signs were not ill-advised.

Ads
  #2  
Old March 6th 14, 06:42 PM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
Liam O'Connor
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Posts: 142
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

LEGAL QUESTION:
What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

DETAILS:
The three multi-way STOP signs in question are easily viewed
by pasting the following GPS coordinates into Google Maps:
37.291379,-121.958411

The flagrantly illegal multi-way STOP signs are those facing
each other on Llewellyn Ave, which is abutted at that point
by Queens Ct.

I live near that intersection, and I firmly believe that
those multi-way stop signs can't possibly be legal.

But, how do I prove that they were illegally placed?
And, what is the process to have them removed, by law?

MORE DETAILS:
I believe that the people who authorized the placement of those
two multi-way STOP signs themselved did not respect the law in
their very act of illegally authorizing their placement.

I believe, the signs are not only unenforceable, but they are
so obviously ridiculously placed as to cause knowledgeable
drivers, such as I am, to disrespect them.

REFERENCES:

Page 2 of the December 2009 NHTSA MUTCD clearly warns:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r...2editionhl.pdf
"A standard device used where it is not appropriate is ...
objectionable ... because such misuse might result in
disrespect..."

Tellingly, page 50 of the NHTSA MUTCD warns administrators:
"... STOP signs should not be used for speed control".

Page 50 of the NHTSA MUTCD specifies:
"A ... STOP sign should not be installed on the higher volume
roadway unless justified by an engineering study."

Page 52 of the NHTSA MUTCD, reaffirms:
"The decision to install multi-way stop control should be
based on an engineering study."

Page 52 of the NHTSA MUTCD states:
"Multi-way stop control is used where the volume of traffic
on the intersecting roads is approximately equal."

There are additional conditions on page 52 (e.g., minimum volumes
of 200 units per hour on the side street, 300 vehicles per hour
on the main street, five or more reported crashes in a 12-month
period, 85th-percentile speeds exceeding 40mph, left-turn conflicts,
high pedestrian volume, visibility issues, etc.), none of which,
in my personal opinion, could possibly exist for this intersection.

Note: There is absolutely no way the signs in question
meet *any* of these requirements, and therefore their
placement can't possibly have been based on a competent
"engineering study".

The two signs in question are those at the intersection
visible in Google Maps by pasting this as the search:

SUMMARY:
I believe the multi-way signs at this location are an
example of administrators abusing the law, and I would
like to ask for your advice as to what measures are
available to me, a local homeowner, for discovery of
the justification as to why these signs were authorized,
and, what the process would be for them to be removed.

Please advise me.
Thank you in advance.
  #3  
Old March 6th 14, 09:12 PM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
Keith Keller
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Posts: 10
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

["Followup-To:" header set to ba.transportation.]

On 2014-03-06, Liam O'Connor > wrote:
> LEGAL QUESTION:
> What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?


Hire an attorney.

--keith

--

(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

  #4  
Old March 6th 14, 10:22 PM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
David L. Martel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

Liam,

Looks ok to me. Especially with the driveway that is also a part of this
intersection.
Request the engineering study that was done for this intersection. A copy
shouldn't be very expensive. That would be a good starting point.

Good luck,
Dave M.


  #5  
Old March 6th 14, 10:25 PM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
Liam O'Connor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:22:53 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

> Request the engineering study that was done for this intersection.
> A copy shouldn't be very expensive.
> That would be a good starting point.


Hi David,

There was no engineering study.

The traffic engineer called me back and told me that
the people who put up the signs did NOT follow "normal"
procedures.

He said the "normal" procedure is to follow the California
Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, which, he said,
generally comes out three years after the Federal MUTCD.

He says there are differences, such as the school
crosswalk color in California is yellow, but that I needed
to obtain the manual to find out for myself whether the signs
meet the California standards.
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/engineering/

In addition, he told me that the process followed for "those"
signs (there's a similar set at King's Court, very near to
Queen's Court) was that there was a "warrant" but no "analysis".

He said a "neighborhood survey" was used instead, and that the
"City Council" authorized the city to install those signs.

He informally agreed with me that it would be "very difficult"
for those signs to meet today's standards, but, he said, there
is no process for removal of those signs, as, he said, they
do not revisit the justifications for those signs after the
fact.

So, he said, they're up permanently, even though they likely
(by our informal assessment) don't even come close to meeting
today's standards.

I'm not sure what the next step is ... and I could use your
advice!

  #6  
Old March 7th 14, 12:20 AM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
Brent[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,430
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On 2014-03-06, Liam O'Connor > wrote:
> LEGAL QUESTION:
> What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?
>
> DETAILS:
> The three multi-way STOP signs in question are easily viewed
> by pasting the following GPS coordinates into Google Maps:
> 37.291379,-121.958411
>
> The flagrantly illegal multi-way STOP signs are those facing
> each other on Llewellyn Ave, which is abutted at that point
> by Queens Ct.
>
> I live near that intersection, and I firmly believe that
> those multi-way stop signs can't possibly be legal.
>
> But, how do I prove that they were illegally placed?
> And, what is the process to have them removed, by law?
>
> MORE DETAILS:
> I believe that the people who authorized the placement of those
> two multi-way STOP signs themselved did not respect the law in
> their very act of illegally authorizing their placement.
>
> I believe, the signs are not only unenforceable, but they are
> so obviously ridiculously placed as to cause knowledgeable
> drivers, such as I am, to disrespect them.
>
> REFERENCES:
>
> Page 2 of the December 2009 NHTSA MUTCD clearly warns:
> http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r...2editionhl.pdf
> "A standard device used where it is not appropriate is ...
> objectionable ... because such misuse might result in
> disrespect..."
>
> Tellingly, page 50 of the NHTSA MUTCD warns administrators:
> "... STOP signs should not be used for speed control".
>
> Page 50 of the NHTSA MUTCD specifies:
> "A ... STOP sign should not be installed on the higher volume
> roadway unless justified by an engineering study."
>
> Page 52 of the NHTSA MUTCD, reaffirms:
> "The decision to install multi-way stop control should be
> based on an engineering study."
>
> Page 52 of the NHTSA MUTCD states:
> "Multi-way stop control is used where the volume of traffic
> on the intersecting roads is approximately equal."
>
> There are additional conditions on page 52 (e.g., minimum volumes
> of 200 units per hour on the side street, 300 vehicles per hour
> on the main street, five or more reported crashes in a 12-month
> period, 85th-percentile speeds exceeding 40mph, left-turn conflicts,
> high pedestrian volume, visibility issues, etc.), none of which,
> in my personal opinion, could possibly exist for this intersection.
>
> Note: There is absolutely no way the signs in question
> meet *any* of these requirements, and therefore their
> placement can't possibly have been based on a competent
> "engineering study".
>
> The two signs in question are those at the intersection
> visible in Google Maps by pasting this as the search:
>
> SUMMARY:
> I believe the multi-way signs at this location are an
> example of administrators abusing the law, and I would
> like to ask for your advice as to what measures are
> available to me, a local homeowner, for discovery of
> the justification as to why these signs were authorized,
> and, what the process would be for them to be removed.
>
> Please advise me.
> Thank you in advance.


Sadly 'feels good' trumps established engineering practices and
standards and what works in the USA. Judges to elected office holders
will be ignorant of the MUTCD, ITE, the state vehicle code, sign manual,
etc and so forth.

For the typical american traffic devices and road design are to be done
by what feels right. What feels good. Then everyone is supposed to obey
or be punished. Red means stop, green means go is about the limit of
their abilities. Trying to explain to them the proper engineering of
systems to be used by humans is like trying to teach a pig nuclear
physics. In fact it might be easier to teach a pig how to run a nuclear
power plant. The political powers that be, the ones who aren't running
scams for traffic tickets*, simply cannot comprehend something more
complex than forcing people to obey something the government demands.

I can't tell you what will work, but my experience says that relying on
the above won't work. They don't care. They feel, they don't think.

*yeah, some of them understand but they ain't givin' up their cash cow.


  #7  
Old March 7th 14, 12:40 AM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
Liam O'Connor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:52:30 -0800, sms wrote:

> the fact that using stop signs to stop speeding is discouraged,
> it's not illegal.


Hi SMS,

I usually see you over in a.h.r, so it's nice to see you here,
on the legal side of things.

I don't disagree with you that the signs are, most likely,
misused as speed limitors, instead of as STOP signs.

But, such misuse is precisely why the MUTCD says not to misuse
STOP signs.

Nobody who knows anything about the purpose of STOP signs
would treat them with anything other than sheer disdain.

I, myself, blow through them all the time, as I treat them
with disdain, which is the only way they should be treated
(IMHO).

Nonetheless, your analysis is probably correct if the post
office was moved in the 1990s, since the traffic engineer
in Campbell told me that no traffic study was ever performed.

Given that all reasonable people would agree that:
1. The signs are not being used as STOP signs
2. The signs were not placed by the "normal" process

The question is what do I do to get them removed?

Is there an existing process, where such things are reviewed
by someone 'other' than the town of Campbell itself?
  #8  
Old March 7th 14, 12:47 AM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
Liam O'Connor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:20:51 +0000 (UTC), Brent wrote:

> They feel, they don't think.


I must say that was a surprisingly eloquent description of
*why* the signs were placed there. I don't disagree.

It felt good to them to inconvenience traffic on that
road, so as to discourage traffic on that road.

They used an artificial STOP sign because most people inherently
resepect such signs, more so than they respect speed limit &
caution signs.

However, they used the wrong sign for the wrong purpose.
And they know it.

The question now, is how to reverse that decision.
  #9  
Old March 7th 14, 01:53 AM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On 3/6/2014 3:40 PM, Liam O'Connor wrote:

> But, such misuse is precisely why the MUTCD says not to misuse
> STOP signs.


Right, they say to not misuse them. But it's not illegal for a city to
misuse them.

> Nobody who knows anything about the purpose of STOP signs
> would treat them with anything other than sheer disdain.


I would obey them because the alternative is worse. Fighting a ticket is
almost always a hopeless endeavor no matter how sure you are that you
are right. Telling a judge "yes I ran the stop sign but the MUTCD says
not to misuse stop signs and I feel that this installation is misusing
them" would not be successful.

> The question is what do I do to get them removed?


I know only of instances where residents lobbied to have stop signs
installed, and it required the collection of signatures of those on the
affected streets, then a study of the impact and need for the stop sign.
Later they removed it because they reconfigured the problem area making
a street one-way, and eliminating the need for the sign.

I would ask the Campbell Public Works director what the procedure is to
try to install new, or remove existing, traffic control devices. But
it's extremely hard to get a stop sign removed, even when it's no longer
needed. City councils feel that if they remove a stop sign and then
there's a serious accident at the intersection, that the city will have
liability.

I used to live in Campbell and still own property there. Campbell is one
of the better smaller cities in terms of responsiveness to resident's
concerns. The police are also pretty good compared to cities like
Cupertino and Saratoga that lack their own police departments.
  #10  
Old March 7th 14, 02:00 AM posted to misc.legal,ca.driving,rec.autos.driving,ba.transportation
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default What is the process to have an illegal STOP sign removed?

On 3/6/2014 3:47 PM, Liam O'Connor wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:20:51 +0000 (UTC), Brent wrote:
>
>> They feel, they don't think.

>
> I must say that was a surprisingly eloquent description of
> *why* the signs were placed there. I don't disagree.
>
> It felt good to them to inconvenience traffic on that
> road, so as to discourage traffic on that road.
>
> They used an artificial STOP sign because most people inherently
> resepect such signs, more so than they respect speed limit &
> caution signs.
>
> However, they used the wrong sign for the wrong purpose.
> And they know it.
>
> The question now, is how to reverse that decision.


Stop signs are often used for traffic calming even when other traffic
calming measures would be more appropriate. Stop signs are relatively
cheap to install while proper traffic calming is not cheap.

I would phrase any discussion with the city as follows: "how can we
replace these stop signs with another type of traffic calming device
that don't inconvenience local residents but that still discourage the
use of these streets by non-residents?"
 




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