EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

In sci.electronics.repair Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> Cydrome Leader > wrote:
>>In sci.electronics.repair Scott Dorsey > wrote:
>>> =?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= > wrote:
>>>>Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that
>>>>train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is
>>>>that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and
>>>>manufacturing has left?
>>>
>>> There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement
>>> in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was
>>> taken out of gas.
>>>
>>> That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the
>>> scariest thing you can imagine.
>>>
>>> When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery
>>> plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see
>>> the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs
>>> of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look
>>> back.
>>
>>can you elaborate on this?
>
> On scary battery plants or MBTE exposure, or long-term lead exposure rates?
> --scott

both-

I imagined you visited some dirty smelting town where everybody was a
mouth breather caked in filth. The battery plant must have been a pleasant
place too.

Gary, IN had the permanent pollution cloud over it from heavy until maybe
the early 2000s. The smell was awful.

Cydrome Leader > wrote:
>>>can you elaborate on this?
>>
>> On scary battery plants or MBTE exposure, or long-term lead exposure rates?
>> --scott
>
>both-
>
>I imagined you visited some dirty smelting town where everybody was a
>mouth breather caked in filth. The battery plant must have been a pleasant
>place too.

The battery plant was in a town called Leeds, Alabama, and I have no idea
what happened to it. I was born in Pittsburgh so I have a pretty high
tolerance for industrial waste in the air, but lead is scary. The company
there had sent recruiters to gatech and as a new grad I was trying to get
as many plant tours as possible just to see what the industry was like.

I still do try to get plant tours whenever I can.

Here is some recent but pretty complete data on lead levels in children:
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/data/national.htm

And here is a good overview on why any lead is bad:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2533151/

I don't have a good online citation on how blood lead levels dropped when
leaded gasoline was banned, but "Cities: An Environmental History" has
an overview.

>Gary, IN had the permanent pollution cloud over it from heavy until maybe
>the early 2000s. The smell was awful.


But if it was anything like Pittsburgh, the sunsets were beautiful. My
aunt is still upset that they closed the mills down and now with no sulfur
in the air she keeps getting mildew on her roses.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 9/19/15 08:12, mike wrote:
> On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
>>> would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
>>> caught or ratted out.
>>
>> According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.
>>
>> If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
>> the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
>>
>> They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
>> also do worse on emissions testing results).
>>
>> It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
>> think, because of those two results.
>>
>> Do you agree?
>> Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?
>>
> Will you have any choice?
> If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
> emissions, they will FAIL.
> If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
> Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.
>
> You want VW to FIX the problem consistently with the
> original driveablilty and economy.
> Since that's likely not possible, what do you do now?
> Force them to replace the whole car?
>
Yeah. Do a buyback and sell them where it's bloody hot
3rd world countries in africa and asia would rejoice
(australians would too I'm sure)

On 9/19/15 15:25, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
>>> would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
>>> caught or ratted out.
>>
>> According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.
>>
>> If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
>> the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
>>
>> They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
>> also do worse on emissions testing results).
>>
>> It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
>> think, because of those two results.
>>
>> Do you agree?
>> Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?
>>
>
> I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions
> means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that
> the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind.
>

The proper fix would be to buy the cars back from the (willing) owners
at bluebook and sell them to the (3rd world) countries that do not
participate in the smear campaign against VAG and could not care less
about the emissions.
An even more proper fix would be for VAG to withdraw from the american
market altogether.
There are lots of other markets where you do not have to make
emissions claims at all and that would appreciate the 4 banger
[turbo]diesels from VAG

"Ewald Böhm" > wrote in message
...
> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
> 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
> ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.
>
> REFERENCES:
> http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
> http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
> http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
> etc.
>
> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?


According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.


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On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:
> "Ewald Böhm" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
>> 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
>> ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.
>>
>> REFERENCES:
>> http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
>> http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
>>
>> http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
>> emissions?
>
>
> According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
> wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.

I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.

On 05/10/15 13:33, sms wrote:
> On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:
>> According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
>> wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.
> I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
> California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
> sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.

It's trivial to detect that the car is not being driven.
No steering wheel motion, no compass variation, no accelerometer (if
fitted), no... you name it, I'm sure there's a long list of candidates.

On 10/4/2015 9:04 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 05/10/15 13:33, sms wrote:
>> On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:
>>> According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
>>> wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.
>> I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
>> California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
>> sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.
>
> It's trivial to detect that the car is not being driven.
> No steering wheel motion, no compass variation, no accelerometer (if
> fitted), no... you name it, I'm sure there's a long list of candidates.
YOu're overthinking it. It's about driveability
If the rear wheels ain't turning, you should turn on the emission
controls. When the car is stopped in traffic, might as well make it
clean. Performance isn't an issue when stopped.
I'd have taken it a step further and made it clean whenever driveability
isn't compromised...like when not accelerating at a rate faster than
you could do with the emission controls functioning.
Probably would never have been detected.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:06:18 AM UTC-5, mike wrote:
> On 10/4/2015 9:04 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
> > On 05/10/15 13:33, sms wrote:
> >> On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:
> >>> According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
> >>> wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.
> >> I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
> >> California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
> >> sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.
> >
> > It's trivial to detect that the car is not being driven.
> > No steering wheel motion, no compass variation, no accelerometer (if
> > fitted), no... you name it, I'm sure there's a long list of candidates.
> YOu're overthinking it. It's about driveability
> If the rear wheels ain't turning, you should turn on the emission
> controls. When the car is stopped in traffic, might as well make it
> clean. Performance isn't an issue when stopped.
> I'd have taken it a step further and made it clean whenever driveability
> isn't compromised...like when not accelerating at a rate faster than
> you could do with the emission controls functioning.
> Probably would never have been detected.

www.thestack.com Volkswagen clean air act loophole