Clutch bolts and locktite

Vic Smith > wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:33:18 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder > wrote:
>
>>Then I paid Sears to do the alignment, and when I got home, I looked and
>>not a bolt was touched. I took it back to Sears and they tested it and
>>found out the guy didn't even do it. He said his charts only went back 10
>>years and so he didn't have the numbers. And yet they charged me. I as
>>livid, but in those days, I didn't scream bloody further. Nowadays I'd have
>>told them to give it to me for free or I would go to the prosecutor (or at
>>least the home office).
>
>Same thing happened to me at a Firestone shop. I bought a '66 F100 and it was pulling a
>little to the left. I dropped it off for new front tires and an alignment. When I picked
>it up from their parking lot, first thing I did was crawl under it. Same grunge on the tie
>rod ends. Went back in and asked the desk guy why they didn't do the alignment.
>He shouted to the mech and the mech shouted back. "We can't do twin I-beam."
>I had him refund the charge. Pretty close to your experience.

And this, in short, is why you go to an alignment shop with an alignment expert
instead of to the tire store.

You are lucky that they didn't do the alignment, because the tire store has
some high school kid who has been given basic directions to put the car up
on the machine and follow the directions the machine gives him. He really
doesn't know anything about the suspension geometry, but relies entirely on
the machine to do the job. He doesn't check anything for wear, he doesn't
check anything for damage or being bent, he just follows the machine.

If nothing is damaged, loose, bent, or worn, you drive away with the alignment
better than it was when you drove in. If that's not the case (and it likely
isn't, otherwise you wouldn't be getting an alignment anyway), then you drive
away with the alignment made worse.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 23 Jul 2018 16:42:53 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> I didn't see any interest in my suggestion

At this point, I don't remember your "suggestion" ... but ... bearing in
mind very important facts:
1. I did the job so it's related to this newsgroup, and,
2. I have been posting to Usenet for decades, where
3. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie are a detriment to this newsgroup.

The facts are I clearly removed, and replaced that clutch, and I just as
clearly wrote the extremely detailed DIY (and am still working on improving
that DIY so as to give back to the team - which is because I'm purposefully
helpful and a great Usenet citizen), snapping almost a thousand pictures,
of each removal and replacement step and describing for the next person,
how to do what I did (with the purposefully helpful & timely advice from
many others here).

So it's eminently clear that I responded to everyone who had purposefully
helpful intent and am only now getting to responding to the worthless
trolls who wouldn't know a clutch plate from a dinner plate.

Given that
a. I actually did the job, and,
b. I am very smart and can handle complex details, and,
c. I didn't have time to shut the bullying cowardly trolls up,

*I'm only now getting to your worthless posts*.

If you feel that I didn't have an "interest" in your suggestion, then you
can rest assured, since I'm rather intelligent and logical, that I most
likely thought your suggestions were worthless and not even worth at
response at the time that I needed help.

If you feel otherwise, then you're welcome to make a technically on-topic
and technically valid post. I challenge you to do so, in fact as I do
believe that even you have some value to add to the technical topic.

On 29 Jul 2018 17:22:14 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> 3. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie are a detriment to this newsgroup.

OOops. Correction (since I care about my credibility)...

Cowardly bullies like Tekkie *and* Trader4, are a detriment to this
newsgroup.

Note: Wade Garrett is just an annoyance, like an annoying gnat.

On 23 Jul 2018 11:40:10 GMT, Tekkie® wrote:

> I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker,
> tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under
> one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the
> insults and diversions will now start.

Notice that the guys who are the dumbest on this newsgroup, always find
something that is completely unrelated to the clutch job, which is teh
topic here, to "complain" about.

*This post by Tekkie proves, yet again, that he's an utter moron.*

The point here is that Tekkie has *never* once in his entire life added
on-topic technical value to *any* thread. He's _that_ stupid, that he can't
possibly add on-topic technical value.

Why do I say this now, after the clutch job is done?

Because Tekkie is a cowardly bully troll.
a. He is a coward.
b. He is a bully.
c. And, worse, Tekkie proves how utterly _stupid_ he is in every post.

I confront cowardly bullies - in threads I care about - because I want
those threads to come to a technical resolution.

Tekkie can be a cowardly bully on any thread that he wants to bully people
on, and I let him be (yes, I read his idiotic posts all the time).

But that doesn't change the fact that Tekkie is a worthless cowardly bully.
That fact is proven every time he posts - as he did here.

Meanwhile:
a. I post a valid question, and I respond to all valid inquiries.
b. Usually I have time to confront cowardly bullies - but not this time
c. Yes, I care about my privacy - which is the only thing Tekkie sees.

Tekkie never once saw a 'clutch job' in this thread.
Not once.

He's _that_ stupid (and it irks me that people are really as stupid as
Tekkie proves he is every single time he posts).

Two related things irk me:
1. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie who have zero helpful intent, and,
2. Outfits like Sears/Midas/AAMCO who screw their trusting customers

On 29 Jul 2018 08:53:43 GMT, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> And this, in short, is why you go to an alignment shop with an alignment expert
> instead of to the tire store.

This is good advice.
I think Vic Smith said it well when he said not to go to the "franchises".

The problem, for a kid, like I was, is that the franchises are what are
advertised the most. For example, I can still rehears the AAMCO advertising
jingle even today, almost 40 years later.

I have to admit the only three franchises (is Sears a franchise? Probably
not.) that screwed me a
a. AAMCO (they had to be liars because it was motor mounts)
b. MIDAS (they literally did everything wrong on mounting tires)
c. Sears (they charged me for an alignment they never did)

You can't really blame me for *trusting* them, since I'm sure millions of
people trust them (I mean, it's not like I went to a local crack dealer to
get my car fixed, nor that I went to a tire shop to get a transmission
replaced).

But your advice is still valid not to trust them.

> You are lucky that they didn't do the alignment, because the tire store has
> some high school kid who has been given basic directions to put the car up
> on the machine and follow the directions the machine gives him.

I agree with you that they don't even ask how you drive when you ask for an
alignment, where, for example, I have to tell them to decrease the rear
camber from negative 2 degrees to as close to zero as they can get - which
is based on my driving style (I drive like an old man) and my care about
tire wear (I rotate bimmer tires even though BMW doesn't recommend it).

> He really
> doesn't know anything about the suspension geometry, but relies entirely on
> the machine to do the job. He doesn't check anything for wear, he doesn't
> check anything for damage or being bent, he just follows the machine.

I agree with you also, in that *most* alignment shops, even today, that I
called, do NOT add the 500 pounds of weight that BMW says is needed to set
the ride height to the "normal" position (lots of detail I'm omitting).

The only shop that I called, out of something like a dozen, that does use
the weight, is the dealer themselves, and they do use the weight every time
(it's not exactly 500 pounds but it's close enough because you put about
that much in the vehicle until you get the ride height to the "normal"
number of inches).

Only then are the numbers that BMW provides accurate.

NOTE: I don't know if Hunter *compensates* for lack of ride height or not.
(Clare might know more.)

> If nothing is damaged, loose, bent, or worn, you drive away with the alignment
> better than it was when you drove in. If that's not the case (and it likely
> isn't, otherwise you wouldn't be getting an alignment anyway), then you drive
> away with the alignment made worse.

I agree that alignment has two different situations:
a. When you suspect something is 'bent, and,
b. Just checking periodically (to ensure nothing got loose).

Next on my list is alignment at home, where I'm only talking the very few
things you can change by simple adjustment, which, for example, on the
bimmer, is front toe and that's it for the front (sans adding aftermarket
camber plates).

For the rear, it's toe and camber and that's it.

IMHO, after having thought of this problem for years, the real issue is the
mental effort of figuring out how to convert BMW degrees of toe to
centerline to something that you can measure in inches.

Camber, on the other hand, is easy to measure, but you need to get your
level away from the tire bulge, which you *can* measure in degrees, but
only if you can reliably keep the level away from the sidewall bulge and
still perfectly parallel to the wheel.

If you measure by inches, e.g., if you use a plumb bob, then you're stuck
doing trig again.

So of the six jobs almost nobody does at home, the alignment check is the
one that makes the brain hurt the most - which is why - I think - nobody
does it at home. (I could be wrong - but that's what I think unless someone
can give me their reason - which can't be that you need $100K of equipment
so please do not say that because it's just dead wrong and yet I've heard
it a thousand times).

Why don't most people periodically *check* their alignment at home?
(I think the answer is that it makes the brain hurt to figure out how.)

On 29 Jul 2018 08:01:58 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:

> Same thing happened to me at a Firestone shop. I bought a '66 F100 and it was pulling a
> little to the left. I dropped it off for new front tires and an alignment. When I picked
> it up from their parking lot, first thing I did was crawl under it. Same grunge on the tie
> rod ends. Went back in and asked the desk guy why they didn't do the alignment.
> He shouted to the mech and the mech shouted back. "We can't do twin I-beam."
> I had him refund the charge. Pretty close to your experience.

THANK YOU!
The reason I say thank you is that I don't know if my experience is unique.
All I know is that it happened, and, worse, they didn't give a ****.
They charged me. They did nothing. When I brought it back, they didn't
blink an eye when I alleged that no bolt was twisted.

When they put it on the rack, the *only* thing even close was the toe
(which, remember, I had already done). I remember it was a 70 Dodge Dart,
and they said their charts (this is before the Internet, of course) only
went back ten years, so I think it was 1981 as I remember it being close to
those ten years.

What irks me is that they might be doing this for *thousands* of other
customers, which is really one of the major reasons I do my own work (I
haven't been to a mechanic in a decade).

Hence I THANK YOU for letting me know that I'm not the only one who has ben
screwed by alignment shops saying they do the work, and yet, not doing it.

Just as I brought my heavy flywheel with me to pick up the new flywheel
last week, I try to ameliorate this by WATCHING what they do (luckily we
always have cameras nowadays) where watching MIDAS caught them in so many
provable errors when they simply changed my tires that TireRack shipped
them, that they ended up mounting the four tires for the price of the valve
stem (it took them two hours for four tires because I kept stopping them to
tell them that they were doing it wrong - and they did _that_ many things
wrong - where I had a full-fledged SLR on my neck strap proving every
step).

TireRack called me back (they have a guy for this actually, who runs the
recommended installer program) and said they kicked that MIDAS out of the
recommended installer program - and even after that - MIDAS *still* said
they had a "tirerack" price (which TireRack doesn't allow them to
advertise) so I got them in trouble for that too.

I don't know if they were just screwing me, or if they screw almost anyone,
so that's why I THANK YOU for letting me know I'm not the only one, at
least with alignment, who got screwed by a shop that charged me and didn't
touch anything.

NOTE: I have a mom-and-pop local alignment shop I go to now, where I've
posted pictures in the past of what he does, and he's *GREAT*. He even lets
me bring my own 500 pounds of weight and doesn't complain that I follow him
around like a puppy, watching every bolt (he shows me what to twist) and he
sets the Bimmer's rear camber as close to 0 degrees at my request, even
though the spec is negative 2 degrees (which eats tires like you can't
believe and where I don't need to corner like a banshee).

My rule now is to *WATCH* them ... but I do thank you for confirming that
I'm not the only one who paid for an alignment and didn't get anything in
return.

>
>>Can you believe that they just didn't do it, and didn't give a ****?
>>
>
> Sure can.

That sucks.
Guys like you and me they won't fool too often (e.g., I'll never go to
Sears ever again) - but what about a young kid who goes there today. They
get ripped off because of these people you can't trust.


> I heard the stories, so did some looking around when the trans went out on my '67 Skylark.
> AAMCO wanted $700 - hell, I only paid $475 for the car.
> Went to the used car dealer I bought it from and he told me what trans shop he used.
> They rebuilt the trans for $125.

Thanks for confirming AAMCO is a ripoff, although, we have to remember, I
think they're like Burger Kings where they are owned by a person who isn't
really part of AAMCO per se.

In my case, it was the same Dodge Dart whose motor mounts (both of them)
had sheared such that the engine was tilted and the belts were making
noises.

I brought it *later* to K-Mart for something like a $10 checkup, where
K-Mart told me *exactly* what the problem was (which was easy to repair as
motor mounts were as simple as jacking the engine, removing the mount by a
single nut each, and then putting the new ones in).

So it was clearly easily diagnosed as broken motor mounts.

When I went to AAMCO, they put it on a lift without even looking at the
engine, and then showed me the gunk in the transmission pan, where they
literally swiped their finger in it and showed me the dirty finger
"proving" that the transmission was the culprit.

The charge, as I recall, for a new transmission (or rebuilt?) was $400
which was astronomical to me (I literally didn't have that much money in
the bank at that time), where they were literally livid that I told them to
button it up (it was the "free diagnosis").

They even put in the old mixed fluid from a billion cars!
Now I know how sadistic that act alone is, but then I didn't know any
better (all I did was notice it).

Can you believe that? They had already mixed my fluid in with everyone
else's (including, I'm sure, manual transmissions) and then they
sadistically replaced my fluid with that mess.

Again, I didn't realize at that time how horrid an act that is.

But back to the point, the problem was that the motor mounts were bad, and
yet they told me I needed a new (or rebuilt) transmission!

Being older and wiser, I can only conclude one of two possible things:
1. They are incredible inept, or,
2. They are thieves.

Pick one.

>
>>I taught my kids that very many are crooks (AAMCO is the worst, IMHO).
>>Sigh.
>
> Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
> but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.

I do agree with you on finding someone you can trust. I was in the YMCA
Indian Princess years ago with my kids, where one of the Dads was a
mechanic, where I trusted him (and, since I still have those cars, two
decades later, I know that he replaced every bolt, he torqued them down,
etc and he used OEM parts like he said he did).

He retired, just as you predicted!
Sigh.

Luckily the mom-and-pop alignment shop still exists. The mother is
literally the lady in the front office, and this kid, who is about 30 or
so, is a nice guy who literally lets me under the car with him as he points
out the bolts I need to adjust to set the alignment.

I'm sure Clare would say that most mechanics are honest, and I'm sure most
are, but I didn't even finish telling you my stories of where they're not.

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 7:04:54 PM UTC-10, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 03:01:59 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder > wrote:
>
> >On 28 Jul 2018 16:08:57 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:
> >
> >> You should record all this long saga to a dvd, and give it to your great
> >> grandchildren.
> >
> >What I really love to do, for posterity, is write tutorials.
> >I just posted the nascent tutorial to one of your other posts.
> >Take a look at it, and note two things:
> >a. I don't skip a single step (not a single bolt)
> >b. I have pictures of everything
> >
> >What I'd *love* to do is rip apart an old car and write the "hanes" manual
> >where I'd do so much better than does Chilton or the FSM that it wouldn't
> >be funny.
> >
> >Of course, my method works for a "specific" car, so that would be my angle.
> >A specific model, year, and engine and transmission.
> >
> >Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
> >unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?
>
> Nah, no market for it. The manufacturer has shop manuals for sale.
> I've had them for my last 4 cars. They can be costly, but I've managed to buy used ones on
> Ebay. I think the most expensive was about 45 bucks, but my cars were 10 years old when I
> bought them.
> But they can lead you down the wrong road. For instance, the procedure to replace the
> motor mounts on my '97 Lumina looked way too complicated and costly.
> I found a simple procedure on Youtube, and did it that way.

I used one of those big Chilton multi-year/model manuals to change the timing belts on a Subaru. It was simple enough except they left out a step where you turn the crankshaft 360 degrees after installing one belt. This meant that one cam was 180 degrees out of phase with the other cam. It also meant that your engine wasn't going to start. That was a very bad mistake.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:24:01 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder > wrote:

>On 29 Jul 2018 08:01:58 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:
>

>>
>> Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
>> but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.
>

I'll amend that about franchise shops. Tire shops like Firestone, Just Tires, etc. have
good alignment equipment, or at least should have. My son worked for Just Tires for a few
years, and now works at an independent shop doing mainly heavy truck suspensions.
He talks to old mates at Just Tires, and sends me there when I need alignment work, which
is rare. So far they've done a fine job as far as I can tell.
I've had 4-5 exhaust systems replaced (family cars) at a local Meineke at fair prices.
But they screwed up a brake job - left off the e-brake lever on the rear drum.
It all depends on management and personnel. Just be aware of that, and that a competent
mech can point you to competent shops. This has always worked for me, when I can't do it
myself.

On 07/29/2018 02:33 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Quantum mechanics still drives me nuts because nothing in it is intuitive,
> which is another point -- which is that anyone who thinks they're intuitive
> - is wrong.

Quantum was the fourth semester as we worked our way through Resnick &
Halliday. (Resnick worked there so we damn well used his book). The TA's
chief claim to fame was playing 'Flight of the Bumblebee' on the
xylophone -- in a dark room with lighted batons. I submitted an essay
titled 'Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle versus Heidegger's Principle
Uncertainty'. Passed the course. It's understandable that some of the
original quantum guys got a little weird.

> That's another thing. We had labs, and in the labs we used caps, of course,
> but they never teach you PRACTICAL stuff, like the difference between
> tantalum and electrolytic, and pancake caps, and what happens if you stick
> a 10VDC electrolytic water tower into the electrical socket (that's fun if
> you haven't tried it).

One of my clients was Sprague Electric's Maine plant where they made
tantlums. They were a fun client with a severe case of NIH so I got to
design a Z80 motherboard and peripheral cards for process monitoring.
That was back when there were about 20 flavors of Z80 control system
schemes like the STD bus but they wanted their very own. They also like
FORTH so I got to use that. Ultimately FORTH got me some work on
aircraft fuel measurement and management systems but I was strictly
doing software by them. Logic is logic; TTL, relays, fluidics,
microcontrollers, whatever.

On 07/29/2018 01:47 AM, Xeno wrote:
> On 29/7/18 4:46 pm, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/28/2018 09:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
>>> unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?
>>
>> The problem is addressed on some forums. With digital cameras and the
>> ease of putting stuff on line quite a few people have done step by
>> step logs. Unfortunately they're model specific. The Toyota forum has
>> saved me a lot of pain. I've got the manual but I'm sure the replace
>> the radio page starts with 'remove dash trim'. Yeah, right. You start
>> down at the transmission hump with a plastic putty knife popping off
>> little plastic bits until you work your way up to the speedometer
>> housing.
>>
>> Bikes are getting just as bad. I had a driveway full of plastic
>> pieces, a gas tank, and other odd and ends before I could get to the
>> regulator to unplug the stator to replace it.
>>
>> Some days I dream of finding a 1965 VW in good shape.
>
> I would consider that dream a nightmare.
>

I might be one of the few members of my generation that never owned a
beetle, never rode in one for more than 5 miles, and never drove one
further than 50 yards. The design philosophy fascinated me though. You
could pretty much take a few apart, mix and match, and put them together
again. In an era where US manufacturers were doing their best to make
sure every model year was utterly incompatible with the previous, that
was something.

I still get irate at times. How many frigging oil filters that almost
but not quite the same does the world need? Those little plastic bits?