Utah: Increasing Speed Limits Doesn't Kill

In article >,
"(PeteCresswell)" > wrote:

> Per Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick:
> >Safety impact
> >
> >It was believed that, based on a drop in fatalities the first year the limit
> >was imposed, the 55 mph limit increased highway safety.
> >
> >Other studies were more mixed on this point..
>
> Also, to reduce an argument to the absurd, if the national speed
> limit were reduced to 5 mph we would see a huge decrease in
> fatalities - maybe to near zero - but it would take ridiculous
> amounts of time to get anywhere. In agreeing that would be
> unacceptable, one implicitly accepts a tradeoff between speed
> limit and number of deaths.
>
> So, even if the 55 argument holds water, there is a legitimate
> consideration of people's time vs fatalities.

In the U.S. highway travel was approximately 4.5 trillion passenger
miles (in 2005):

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_the_United_States>

At an average speed of 45 mph (for the sake of argument and easier
math), that represents 100 billion passenger hours, or 11.4 million
passenger years, or 150,000 passenger lifetimes.

Raise the average speed 5 mph, and that same amount of travel takes
approximately 137,000 passenger lifetimes.

Would raising the average speed mean 13,000 more fatalities? Hardly.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

Brent wrote:
> On 2009-11-13, Larry Sheldon > wrote:
>> Brent wrote:
>>> On 2009-11-13, Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick > wrote:
>>>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Hey stupid. The issue was settled back in 1974 when america adopted
>>>>> the 55 and IMMEDIATELY highway deaths fell from 55k a year to 46k.
>>>> Yeah, it probably had nothing to do with the fuel crisis.
>>> government changed the way they did the counting too. fatality rates
>>> before the NMSL are not comparable to fatality rates after.
>> I don't doubt that, but I don't remember hearing about it before. In
>> what way did it change?
>
> The details can be found in usenet archives... going from memory
> the primary difference was that if a person died of injuries like a year
> later it counted prior to the NMSL. After the NMSL that time period was
> significantly shortened.

Aha. Thanks. Kinda like the current "Infant Mortality Rates" thing.

Interesting concept. "How Many" depends on what you count.

>> (I subscribe to the notion that government statistics will be reported
>> in the way that makes the current point.)
>


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Larry Sheldon > wrote:

> Steve Firth wrote:
> > Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS > wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone with half a brain knows that speed causes more crashes and the
> >> crashes are more violent.
> >
> > I almost agree with you, anyone with half a brain, like you, thinks that
> > speed causes more crashes.
> >
> > So umm, how do you explain the following road death rates?
> >
> > France Speed limit 81mph 86 /million population
> > Germany Speed limit 155mph 70 /million population
> > UK Speed limit 70mph 53 /million population
> > USA Speed limit 55mph 148 /million population
> >
> > I'm laughing at you, not with you.
>
> "laughing" wasn't quite right.

Oh it was.

> On the stats here--deaths per passenger mile might be more enlightening.

Oh indeed, it's even more amusing to do it that way:

Motorway/interstate road deaths:

France 4.0 /bn km
Germany 3.8 /bn km
UK 2.0 /bn km
USA 5.2 /bn km

I'm still laighing at you.

> I think we drive and ride a whole lot more miles that most other
> countries do.

It doesn't matter what you think, the facts show you're wrong.

Steve Firth wrote:

>>> I'm laughing at you, not with you.
>> "laughing" wasn't quite right.
>
> Oh it was.

I was unclear. I wouldn't describe what _I_ was doing as "laughing",
exactly....

Steve Firth wrote:
> Larry Sheldon > wrote:
>
>> Steve Firth wrote:
>>> Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyone with half a brain knows that speed causes more crashes and the
>>>> crashes are more violent.
>>> I almost agree with you, anyone with half a brain, like you, thinks that
>>> speed causes more crashes.
>>>
>>> So umm, how do you explain the following road death rates?
>>>
>>> France Speed limit 81mph 86 /million population
>>> Germany Speed limit 155mph 70 /million population
>>> UK Speed limit 70mph 53 /million population
>>> USA Speed limit 55mph 148 /million population
>>>
>>> I'm laughing at you, not with you.
>> "laughing" wasn't quite right.
>
> Oh it was.
>
>> On the stats here--deaths per passenger mile might be more enlightening.
>
> Oh indeed, it's even more amusing to do it that way:
>
> Motorway/interstate road deaths:
>
> France 4.0 /bn km
> Germany 3.8 /bn km
> UK 2.0 /bn km
> USA 5.2 /bn km
>
> I'm still laighing at you.
>
>> I think we drive and ride a whole lot more miles that most other
>> countries do.
>
> It doesn't matter what you think, the facts show you're wrong.

Since I didn't make any assertions here (beyond saying the numbers
presented don't say much) so I don't see the facts showing me wrong.

I can't even clearly understand what facts you are talking about or what
they are showing.

Maybe you can't work it out in the kill file with the speeding drunl murder.


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"Larry Sheldon" > wrote in message
...
> Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
>> "Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" > wrote in
>> message m...
>>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" > wrote
>>> in message
>>> ...
>>>> Hey stupid. The issue was settled back in 1974 when america adopted
>>>> the 55 and IMMEDIATELY highway deaths fell from 55k a year to 46k.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it probably had nothing to do with the fuel crisis.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hell - no actual need for studies anyway. Anyone with half a brain
>>>> knows that speed causes more crashes and the crashes are more violent.
>>>
>>> In fact, most people with half a brain think exactly that.
>>
>>
>>
>> Safety impact
>>
>> It was believed that, based on a drop in fatalities the first year the
>> limit was imposed, the 55 mph limit increased highway safety.
>>
>> Other studies were more mixed on this point, and a Cato Institute report
>> showed that the safety record actually worsened in the first few months
>> of the 55 mph speed limit, suggesting that the fatality drop was a
>> short-lived anomaly that regressed to the mean by 1978.[14] After the oil
>> crisis abated, the 55 mph speed limit was retained mainly due to the
>> possible safety aspect.
>>
>> In 1986, the highway death toll was roughly half that of 1966. The
>> Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, which normally favors increased
>> restrictions on drivers, said that credit for this "mainly" goes to laws
>> passed 8 years before the 55 mph speed limit went into effect. Joan
>> Claybrook was in "deep agreement."[15]
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law
>
> The thing that never gets mentioned much is the air-bags thing and a whole
> host of cockpit design changes, the standards for breakaway sign posts,
> rumble strips, and on and on.
>
> The "Speed Kills" thing is the second worst thing the National Safety
> Council has ever done.

Anti

Lock

Brakes...




>
> --
> Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
> of System Administrators:
> Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
> learn from their mistakes.
> Eppure si rinfresca
>
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> http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
>



--

--
Popeye
"If one does as God does enough times, one
will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762

"Steve Firth" > wrote in message
.. .
> Larry Sheldon > wrote:
>
>> Steve Firth wrote:
>> > Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Anyone with half a brain knows that speed causes more crashes and the
>> >> crashes are more violent.
>> >
>> > I almost agree with you, anyone with half a brain, like you, thinks
>> > that
>> > speed causes more crashes.
>> >
>> > So umm, how do you explain the following road death rates?
>> >
>> > France Speed limit 81mph 86 /million population
>> > Germany Speed limit 155mph 70 /million population
>> > UK Speed limit 70mph 53 /million population
>> > USA Speed limit 55mph 148 /million population
>> >
>> > I'm laughing at you, not with you.
>>
>> "laughing" wasn't quite right.
>
> Oh it was.
>
>> On the stats here--deaths per passenger mile might be more enlightening.
>
> Oh indeed, it's even more amusing to do it that way:
>
> Motorway/interstate road deaths:
>
> France 4.0 /bn km
> Germany 3.8 /bn km
> UK 2.0 /bn km
> USA 5.2 /bn km

Can we have the cite for this, please?


>
> I'm still laighing at you.
>
>> I think we drive and ride a whole lot more miles that most other
>> countries do.
>
> It doesn't matter what you think, the facts show you're wrong.



--

--
Popeye
"If one does as God does enough times, one
will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762

Larry Sheldon > wrote:

> Maybe you can't work it out in the kill file

Bless, precious wittle darling has had a tantrum. Isn't that sweet?

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:

>> The "Speed Kills" thing is the second worst thing the National Safety
>> Council has ever done.
>
> Anti
>
> Lock
>
> Brakes...

Interesting--I can't think of where they introduce a hazard beyond the
whole "my car will take care of me, I don't need to think or actively
participate here".

And I didn't think the NSC had much to do with that.

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick > wrote:

> > The "Speed Kills" thing is the second worst thing the National Safety
> > Council has ever done.
>
> Anti
>
> Lock
>
> Brakes...

So errm you're saying that the USA doesn't have ABS? Is that an
explanation for how come you kill three times more people on the roads
than we do in the UK, despite your silly low speed limits?