why is rfactor

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:39 +0100 (BST),
(Andrew MacPherson) wrote:

>In article >,
(Peter) wrote:
>
>> Gotta go with Byron here. Played GPL (another Papy product) online
>> many, many times on dialup with plenty of warp going on amongst the
>> drivers and if you got catapulted off the track that was it.
>
>WHS. With modem connections it could be a nightmare at times. Cars
>disappearing, then reappearing miles away, then back again. I got used
>to backing well away from anyone who started to "flicker".


Ah, the good old days....blinking cars in a Monza T1....sigh


Cheers!

Remco

> > Another issue is that some racing games react
> > differently depending on the system they are
> > running on. Control input for online play wouldn't
> > work at all on these games.

> That is true, but only for badly coded games.

Since the newer games use telemetry based replays, there's really
no easy way to confirm that a game isn't system sensitive.

I found that Live For Speed S1 gave a player the equivalent of a
steering assist if a force feedback controller was instead of a
non-force feed back controller. The increased stability
allowed you to push the limits harder and resulted in better
lap times.

The original Need for Speed Underground 1 was one of the worst
offenders ever in this regard to system peformance. It was improved,
but never completely fixed.

>> If the replays record enough telemetry information
>> for every car in a race, then they can be used to
>> check for cheats. This is how it's done in NR2003.
> Do you know for a fact that it works this way?

The moderators for many NR2003 online servers review replays for
evidence of cheating or deliberate wrecking. I would assume that
league servers do the same.

>> Note that Need For Speed 2 thru 5 save only
>> the control inputs for replays (along with car id,
>> tuning, assist and cheat codes used), and work
>> perfectly, even when viewed on other systems.
>
> And that's exactly the same concept as control input based multiplayer.
> If you like, you could think of it as each client seeing a real-time
> 'replay' of each other client in the game. You can crash into them
> because the server calculates the collisions for each client.

but as I mentioned, every one hated using contol input mode for
multiplayer play. It slowed down your own cars response time by too much,
and it didn't solve the lag - collision issue. I've been recently
playing NR2003 online, and there have been a few times where I've been
close to another car and that car has been spun, even though my
game didn't detect any contact, and my replay showed that there
was clearly a gap between the cars (usually about a foot), yet the
other car responded as if there was a collision. I'm pretty sure
that the replay on the other system would have shown a collision.
I call this "lag" induced collision. It was really bad back in
the early days of online racing because most players were using
slow modems.

One of the first racing games to have server based online play was
NFS4 (High Stakes). Almost all NFS4 online play was done with collision
off. Most NFS5 (Porsche Unleashed) play was done with collision off.
These games didn't simulate drafting so it wasn't an issue. Lag was
never an issue, because there were no collisions between cars (just
objects). Wreckers didn't exist. Personally, I found the collision
off online racing to be just as enjoyable as collision on racing
with the newer games of today. The racing can be closer when you
can drive right through the car ahead of you. In the case of
NFS4 and NFS5, it was handled well because you could see the dash
and through the windshield of any car you were driving through.

NFS4 control input sampling rate is 32 times a second. NFS5 is 64.
I don't know what modern games use, but the cycle time for
a control input based online racing would really mess up the force
feedback so often used these days. Even in the non-force feedback
day of NFS4 and NFS5, control input based online racing really
messed up the handling of the cars (most were using modems in those
days so the cycle time was probably much worse than it would
be today).

> With modem connections it could be a nightmare at times. Cars
> disappearing, then reappearing miles away, then back again. I got used
> to backing well away from anyone who started to "flicker".

Even with high speed connections, racing in a pack of 20+ cars nn
a super speedway race in NR2003, where most are bumper to bumper and
side by side at 190mph, a small amount of lag often leads to huge
wrecks. You see a car flickering and you'd be wise to back off or
try to get by and get a car between you and the lagging car.

Jeff Reid wrote:
> but as I mentioned, every one hated using contol input mode for
> multiplayer play. It slowed down your own cars response time by too much

Well, you can negate that entirely by doing clientside prediction,
which began in QuakeWorld. Just because the game you describe didn't
bother doing it, and suffered the lag, doesn't mean that it happens in
every other game.

In article >,
says...
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:39 +0100 (BST),
> (Andrew MacPherson) wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> (Peter) wrote:
> >
> >> Gotta go with Byron here. Played GPL (another Papy product) online
> >> many, many times on dialup with plenty of warp going on amongst the
> >> drivers and if you got catapulted off the track that was it.
> >
> >WHS. With modem connections it could be a nightmare at times. Cars
> >disappearing, then reappearing miles away, then back again. I got used
> >to backing well away from anyone who started to "flicker".
>
>
> Ah, the good old days....blinking cars in a Monza T1....sigh
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Remco
>

Remember one time racing at Monaco I started from somewhere near the
back and managed to tiptoe through cars hanging from barriers, guard
rails and even lampposts on my way up to casino square. I was laughing
so much at the time at all these oddly placed cars, hanging like
ornaments around the circuit that I was struggling to keep the car on
the road.

Great times!!

--
Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:51:36 -0700, "Jeff Reid"
> wrote:
>One of the first racing games to have server based online play was
>NFS4 (High Stakes). Almost all NFS4 online play was done with collision
>off. Most NFS5 (Porsche Unleashed) play was done with collision off.
>These games didn't simulate drafting so it wasn't an issue. Lag was
>never an issue, because there were no collisions between cars (just
>objects). Wreckers didn't exist. Personally, I found the collision
>off online racing to be just as enjoyable as collision on racing
>with the newer games of today. The racing can be closer when you
>can drive right through the car ahead of you. In the case of
>NFS4 and NFS5, it was handled well because you could see the dash
>and through the windshield of any car you were driving through.


Hmm, that's not racing, that's social hotlapping.

Cheers!


Remco

>>Almost all NFS4 online play was done with collision off.

> Hmm, that's not racing, that's social hotlapping.

You're correct, it is social hotlapping, but it can be fun.

One thing that collision off racing allows is tracks with
a single line. In the case of NFS4, the game had very
narrow lines (shortcuts through rocks, pillars, or trees)
which had to be used to get the best lap times. For this
game, collision off made sense. Part of the draw of NFS4
was it's fast pace combined with very narrow lines you
had to get just right (or end up crashed).

Other than super speedway racing on NR2003, cars usually
spread out pretty quickly on most racing games, so the
collision factor isn't much of an issue after the first
few turns of a race. Another exception would be a F1
type street course, where almost all of the passing
takes place in the pits, probably wouldn't be fun.

Rule 1 of sim racing - never trust the other bloke OR his connection (or
the internet for that matter).

If I'm to the outside of anyone I normally try to have a minimum of half
a car width between us - more like a whole car width.


"Jeff Reid" > wrote in message
news:M_DNe.105282$E95.54399@fed1read01...
>> With modem connections it could be a nightmare at times. Cars
>> disappearing, then reappearing miles away, then back again. I got used
>> to backing well away from anyone who started to "flicker".
>
> Even with high speed connections, racing in a pack of 20+ cars nn
> a super speedway race in NR2003, where most are bumper to bumper and
> side by side at 190mph, a small amount of lag often leads to huge
> wrecks. You see a car flickering and you'd be wise to back off or
> try to get by and get a car between you and the lagging car.
>
>
>
>
>

Maybe thats why I never became a GPL freak like many here. (Though I did
enjoy it for a short time)

I have a hard time calling it "fun" to see the field wrecked on the first
lap of a race. "Annoyed": describes my feeling better than fun.

Thats the norm on just about any non league online race nowadays. Whether
GPL. NR200 GTR LSF it doesnt matter.

The GTL AI is better than 90% of todays sim racers anyway.

Mitch


"Peter" > wrote in > rails and even
lampposts on my way up to casino square. I was laughing
> so much at the time at all these oddly placed cars, hanging like
> ornaments around the circuit that I was struggling to keep the car on
> the road.
>
> Great times!!
>
> --
> Pete Ives
> Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

In article >,
(Mitch_A) wrote:

> The GTL AI is better than 90% of todays sim racers anyway.

I haven't had chance to get to grips with the GTL demo yet, but last
week I did dig out GPL65 for the first time in a while and got sucked
into an offline race accidentally, purely by the fact I'd forgotten how
good the AI is to race against. I know GPL is past its sell-by date in
many ways, but the overall racing experience still has much to offer the
virtual petrol-head.

Andrew McP