Mega-MFFY

In article >, John Gaquin wrote:
> Problem 1) I don't believe that just a few
> people can have so regular a stream of traffic incidents.

You want to ride along? I'll extend you the same invite I do to anyone
who doesn't believe me. Of course if it's bicycling, you better be able
to do 30mph on flat ground because I'm not slowing up for you.

> You guys are
> either very inattentive drivers, or you're just making this stuff up.

I'm extreme attentive, that's why I notice it all.

> Problem 2) A steady stream of anecdotes pointing out the ineptitude of
> others is naught more than a thinly veiled shout for attention -- look at
> me!

Why the hell would I want attention for?

>>> Brent, I drive 6000 miles per month in a professional capacity.
>> Wooptie do.
> Mature response. That's good.

You're the one trying for a ****ing contest.

>>> I train other drivers for my company.
>> In something big I suppose.
> Unwarranted assumption. Where's Arif -- doesn't he monitor these things?

Because it's normally truckers who do that rutine... why be so mysterous?

>> I'll tell you what happened today. I am going along in the left lane of
>> a four lane road behind another driver. A van gets on my rear bumper
><snip>
>> ....The van driver changes lanes and
>> is coming down the right lane, pulls up next to me at the next light and
>> flips me off.
>>
>> So, what did I do so illegal or even against common advice mr.
>> professional who never has any incidents?
>
> Nothing illegal, so far as I can tell, but he flipped you off because you
> were ****ing with him. That's easy to see.

He was ****ing with me. He created a condition where I had to slow. Of
course you don't see that way, you see it as not being a compliant person
who allows himself to be pushed around.

> I don't advocate that response,
> but that's my analysis. He was clearly in a rush (no judgement as to why,
> or on his methods - irrelevant to your question) You said you moved to the
> right to pass vehicle 1 in front of you

No, I said I moved to the right so he would no longer be on my ass. Once
in the right lane I was only moving slightly faster (about 2mph) faster
than the driver in the left lane. The right lane becomes right turn only
further up, and if I hadn't had a van 2 feet off my rear bumper I would
have remained in the left lane.

> and then when van moved over behind
> you you deliberately held your speed down.

To ever so slightly below the limit. It's the RIGHT lane. I have no
obligation and now had no other way to keep him off my ass other than to
accelerate rapidly and be subject to ticketing by the cops. So you think
I should have driven 60mph in a 40mph zone to satisify this van driver
and be safe?

> When van moved back left, you
> sped up and passed #1 on the right..

To the normal speed of traffic because I was going straight and that was
the only way I could change lanes. If the van driver had not been
tailgating me, there would have never been any issue of any kind.

> You were ****ing with him, and he
> flipped you off. That is easy to see. Now- question: how does your
> handling of this van driver mesh with your earlier exhortation on driving
> such that you don't negatively impact others?

He was driving in a manner that negatively impacted me, I could have
cared less about him until he sucked up to the rear bumper of my car. At
that point, all I wanted was him off my bumper. But thanks to speed
enforcement, I couldn't use acceleration as a tool. I got out of his
way initially. It's not my fault he found someone else in his way.

But let me get this straight, you expected me to move to the right and
punch the accelerator up to 60mph to satisify this guy? Yet, you also
expect me to drive at or below the speed limit, but that's '****ing with
the guy' It sounds like you just want to fault me.

>> This is the road environment in which I drive and ride. I have been
>> physically attacked when I am on bicycle for merely being on the road.
>> I've had drivers come across the center line and aim at me for no reason
>> but their own amusement. I'd love to hear you explain how that's my
>> fault, mr. professional.

> I have no explanation for it, but I would suggest that if it happens
> regularly to you, but doesn't seem to happen to others very much, you might
> want to analyze what you may be doing that seems to **** people off.

Bicycling wise, many people have simply surrendered their right to use
the roadway to avoid conflict. They use sidewalks and such. I find
sidewalks too dangerous to ride and I ride too fast for them anyway. Not
to mention it's illegal. Just following the vehicle code and using the
road is enough to **** off drivers. I worked with someone who was also a
vehicular bicyclist and he had just as many problems per mile on the
roads around here as I did. A bicyclist I worked with recently had
somewhat less problems but he would take to the sidewalk at times and
most of his milage was on roads with far fewer drivers which explained the
difference.

Driving wise, I don't have any more problems than anyone else either. The
only unusual problem is that my cars seem to be targets for teenage drivers
over the last decade. I've also at times driven passively where I don't
hold my ground because I figured that would scare a passenger. Guess
what? They were even more scared as people tailgated, cut me off, etc and
so forth.

I still remember one woman I went out with... I was in a left
turn lane, in the lane next to me was an F body. That lane was supposed
to go straight. The light turns green and mr. f body moves to cut me off and
turn LEFT. I was first in the queue BTW. There was only one recieving lane
and it was a small urban intersection at the end of the ramp off the
expressway. I backed off because she was in the car, and then she
commented that I only let him go because she was in the car... This was
the first time she had ever ridden with me. These things don't go away
when I don't hold my ground, they actually happen more often if anything.

Which is exactly how things go when I am bicycling. If I don't take a
confident, strong position, some drivers will take that as license to run
me off the road. The automobile allows me some more protection, but just
appearing to be someone that can be pushed around attracts those who
push. I could drive around entirely passively and have even more things to
note down and post.

>> Oh, and while we are talking about professional drivers, how is it that
>> when I choose to drive the speed limit on an interstate or the weather is
>> poor, there is almost always some professional driver in a big rig who
>> decides that less than 5 feet is a suitable following distance?

> I don't know the answer to that.

Then obviously you drive in an entirely different environment.

In article >, John Gaquin wrote:
>
> "Brent P" > wrote in message
>>
>> This best describes the way I ride:
>>
>> http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/docs/pamanual.pdf
>
> If you ride as described herein, then my assumption was wrong. If you do,
> then you will be about the *tenth* on-road bicycle rider in my lifetime that
> I have encountered or heard of who properly follows vehicular rules.

Odds are you don't even notice most vehicular bicyclists unless you are
stuck behind a driver who is too scared to pass one.

> [Caveat: a fair amount of the cyclists I see are urban messengers, possibly
> not representative of the whole.]

That's like judging all car drivers by cabbies.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 02:53:12 -0600,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, John Gaquin wrote:
>> Problem 1) I don't believe that just a few
>> people can have so regular a stream of traffic incidents.
>
>You want to ride along? I'll extend you the same invite I do to anyone
>who doesn't believe me. Of course if it's bicycling, you better be able
>to do 30mph on flat ground because I'm not slowing up for you.

I've often thought of attaching my little webcam to my bike helmet,
putting my laptop into a backpack, and recording a bike trip along the
bike lanes where the pedalcyclists are always straddling the white
lane spearation line (to verify that there are, indeed, debris in the
bike lane). You could easily do something similar to capture the
idiocy you see on your daily ride.

>> You guys are
>> either very inattentive drivers, or you're just making this stuff up.
>
>I'm extreme attentive, that's why I notice it all.

And that highlights the true problem: some people are so oblivious
that they DON'T notice what's happening all around them. Ironically,
these oblivious drivers are also a major CAUSE of these very same
incidents.

"Brent P" > wrote in message


> You want to ride along?

I think it would be fascinating to see just how a legion of incompetent
morons manages to know your schedule, and place themselves all around you
whenever you try to go somewhere.

>
> I'm extreme attentive, that's why I notice it all.

No one -- no one -- notices everything. If you *think* you see it all,
that could explain your problem.

>
> Why the hell would I want attention for?

I just don't know, Brent, but you and scott and a couple of others here are
the ones clamoring for it. Answer the question yourself.

>
> You're the one trying for a ****ing contest.

****ing contests are for kids. I was just trying to establish in context
that I drive enough to have a broad cross-section of exposure to all types
of drivers. Just as a guess, I'd venture that I probably drive about two or
three times as much as you. Just a guess.


>
>>> I'll tell you what happened today. I am going along in the left lane of

> He was ****ing with me. He created a condition where I had to slow.

>
>> and then when van moved over behind
>> you you deliberately held your speed down.
>
> To ever so slightly below the limit. ......So you think
> I should have driven 60mph in a 40mph zone to satisify this van driver
> and be safe?


>
> He was driving in a manner that negatively impacted me, I could have

>
> But let me get this straight, you expected me to move to the right and
> punch the accelerator up to 60mph to satisify this guy? Yet, you also
> expect me to drive at or below the speed limit, but that's '****ing with
> the guy' It sounds like you just want to fault me.

Bizarre, convoluted rationalization! This is the same excuse mode that
wife-beaters use: "Its her fault I beat on her 'cause she's the one who
made me so mad"

Come on! Twice you've posited that the only alternative to your speed was
to increase to 60mph. Clearly that's tripe. This business of proposing
extreme change as the only alternative is a very juvenile and transparent
tactic. Try some middle ground! At 45, you would have passed the vehicle
in the left lane fairly expeditiously, been by him, been out of the van's
way, and been out of the affair with no further interaction. Your chosen
course of action actually prolonged the problem.

>
>>> Oh, and while we are talking about professional drivers, how is it that
>>> when I choose to drive the speed limit on an interstate or the weather
>>> is
>>> poor, there is almost always some professional driver in a big rig who
>>> decides that less than 5 feet is a suitable following distance?
>
>> I don't know the answer to that.
>
> Then obviously you drive in an entirely different environment.

Now, clarify this for me, please. I tell you that I simply don't know why
some truck driver climbs up your butt, and on this basis you conclude that I
drive in an entirely different environment. Please expound. How shall I
tell what's in this driver's mind? If you can't figure it out (and you're
right there) how shall I make a determination?

(Brent P) wrote in
news
> This is the road environment in which I drive and ride. I have
> been physically attacked when I am on bicycle for merely being on
> the road. I've had drivers come across the center line and aim at
> me for no reason but their own amusement.

Where do you drive/ride?

--
Mike Nitabach

In article >, John Gaquin wrote:
>
> "Brent P" > wrote in message

>> You want to ride along?
>
> I think it would be fascinating to see just how a legion of incompetent
> morons manages to know your schedule, and place themselves all around you
> whenever you try to go somewhere.

Today was a good day... probably drove a good 130 miles and only
encountered two MFFY drivers. The first was driving a black magnum. 4
lane road plus left turn lane. I'm in the left turn lane the magnum
driver is in the right lane. He decides, this is my turn... it's a backed
up queue and I am at the back of it. Magnum driver is already past half
of it. He yanks the steering wheel and drives perpedicular to the roadway
to the left turn lane and expects the queue to part for him. When it
doesn't and someone just about t-bones him, mr. magnum decides to get
into the left lane and moves up to the front of the queue where he then
moves for an angled wedge in where on the green arrow and enabler lets
him in. The resulting confusion and delay because of his wedging takes up
most of the left turn cycle. This results in many drivers, including
myself left there for a second cycle while mr. magnum is long gone.

The second was a dualie pickup towing a trailer with a piece of earth
moving equipment on it. We are on I90/94 near the circle interchange
where this truck is illegally in the second lane from the left. I am in
the left lane the car in front of me is next to the trailer. The driver
of the truck decides he wants to be in the far left lane, and just comes
over. Forcing the driver in front of me to brake and move to the
shoulder. I do as well to try to avoid any collateral damage.

But I suppose you'll find a way to blame both of those on me, despite
neither directly involving me.

>> I'm extreme attentive, that's why I notice it all.

> No one -- no one -- notices everything. If you *think* you see it all,
> that could explain your problem.

'it all' being all the things you don't grasp that I am seeing. You're
getting pretty troll like.

>> Why the hell would I want attention for?

> I just don't know, Brent, but you and scott and a couple of others here are
> the ones clamoring for it. Answer the question yourself.

I would post very little if it wasn't for folks like you preaching
infinite tolerance and 'just let them do it'.

>> You're the one trying for a ****ing contest.

> ****ing contests are for kids. I was just trying to establish in context
> that I drive enough to have a broad cross-section of exposure to all types
> of drivers. Just as a guess, I'd venture that I probably drive about two or
> three times as much as you. Just a guess.

In other words a ****ing contest.

>> But let me get this straight, you expected me to move to the right and
>> punch the accelerator up to 60mph to satisify this guy? Yet, you also
>> expect me to drive at or below the speed limit, but that's '****ing with
>> the guy' It sounds like you just want to fault me.

> Bizarre, convoluted rationalization! This is the same excuse mode that
> wife-beaters use: "Its her fault I beat on her 'cause she's the one who
> made me so mad"

Not at all. What are my alternatives mr. professional driver? What is
the perscribed action when tailgated? SLOW DOWN or get out of the way. I
did both.

> Come on! Twice you've posited that the only alternative to your speed was
> to increase to 60mph. Clearly that's tripe.

Other than what I did, which was to slow. You seem to believe that I
should have satisified this tailgater.


> This business of proposing
> extreme change as the only alternative is a very juvenile and transparent
> tactic. Try some middle ground! At 45, you would have passed the vehicle
> in the left lane fairly expeditiously, been by him, been out of the van's
> way, and been out of the affair with no further interaction. Your chosen
> course of action actually prolonged the problem.

I would have been A) speeding, which you and the rest like you here say I
shouldn't do. B) It wouldn't have been fast enough because he was moving
about 55-60mph before he was on my ass. C) he was tailgating me, and if
you are advising me to speed up when tailgated, then tell me why I
shouldn't tailgate to make others drive faster?


>> Then obviously you drive in an entirely different environment.

> Now, clarify this for me, please. I tell you that I simply don't know why
> some truck driver climbs up your butt, and on this basis you conclude that I
> drive in an entirely different environment. Please expound. How shall I
> tell what's in this driver's mind? If you can't figure it out (and you're
> right there) how shall I make a determination?

You don't believe any of what I write occurs. You believe it's all my
doing somehow. You claim to never encounter anything like it. Do the math.

In article >, Michael Nitabach wrote:
> (Brent P) wrote in
> news >
>> This is the road environment in which I drive and ride. I have
>> been physically attacked when I am on bicycle for merely being on
>> the road. I've had drivers come across the center line and aim at
>> me for no reason but their own amusement.
>
> Where do you drive/ride?

Chicago and suburbs. Most of c(r)ook county (yes, all the way down to
the southern end) and a good hunk of southern lake.

(Brent P) wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Michael Nitabach wrote:
>> (Brent P) wrote in
>> news >>
>>> This is the road environment in which I drive and ride. I have
>>> been physically attacked when I am on bicycle for merely being
>>> on the road. I've had drivers come across the center line and
>>> aim at me for no reason but their own amusement.
>>
>> Where do you drive/ride?
>
> Chicago and suburbs. Most of c(r)ook county (yes, all the way down
> to the southern end) and a good hunk of southern lake.

Sounds horrible. I ride a bike in NYC and in Orange County (CA) and,
other than the occasional close pass, I have never felt intentionally
threatened by car drivers.

I drive a car in southwest CT between NYC and New Haven, and there is
terrible driving there--much worse than either in New York, New
Jersey, or Californa. Passing lane discipline is very lax, and red-
light running is rampant. As a pedestrian in New Haven, my default
assumption is that every vehicle will ignore every traffic light; I
wait for positive evidence of vehicle intention before crossing any
street.

--
Mike Nitabach

In article >, Michael Nitabach wrote:

> Sounds horrible. I ride a bike in NYC and in Orange County (CA) and,
> other than the occasional close pass, I have never felt intentionally
> threatened by car drivers.

Not as bad as boston or florida as I understand it. But I've had objects
thrown at me, people cross the center line, etc and so forth... Usually
on the order of one bad incident a year.

In article >,
John Gaquin > wrote:
>
>There's nothing wrong with being frustrated. Everyone gets frustrated in
>traffic. Its the nature of the beast. The problem is this endless stream
>of daily stories about this stupid bitch doing this to me, or that asshole
>doing that to me, etc., etc. Problem 1) I don't believe that just a few
>people can have so regular a stream of traffic incidents.

There are more things in heaven and earth (particularly the latter)
then are dreamt of in your philosophy.

>Problem 2) A steady stream of anecdotes pointing out the ineptitude of
>others is naught more than a thinly veiled shout for attention

Spare us the pop psychology.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.