2008 Honda Civic Ex Maintenance Schedule

"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote in message
...
>
> "Elle" > wrote
>
>> "Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
>>> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the
>>> Maintenance Minder?
>>
>>> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off.
>
>> Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of
>> responsibility when it comes to maintenance.
>
> That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the
> Maintenance Minder's actual schedule are valid.
>
> You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply gimme a general
> recommendation or two regarding the engine oil.
>
> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every
> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever.

But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it.

> Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine
> oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable
> with.

Cause oil does break down from just sitting there.

> Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil
> every year.

No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, then
change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age.

> That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical
> with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just
> change the oil once a year.

No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing
sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style of
driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in.

> Do you follow what I'm saying?

Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed.

>> The MM computer does take into account distance driven.
>
> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain;
> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?"

More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have they
affected the oil since I was last reset.

>> Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner
>> has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms.
>
> No doubt...and its good to have on there regardless.
>
>> My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing
>> unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for
>> some elaboration.
>
> Agreed.
>
> I also believe its because a whole mess of folks can't remember when they
> last changed their oil, so its a reminder.
>
> Just that simple, IMHO.
>
>> These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new
>> technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it
>> may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out.
>
> Well said. I believe it will remain in one form or another.
>
> I also believe the main thing is that folks like me and the Avalon fella
> is that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up
> and do what the computer says".

Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is
neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change
the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%.

> If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how
> to fix or maintain the dang thing.
>
> So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info for their
> general plan for oil changes and filter changes in case Ye Olde MM
> fails...if they did that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation
> right now.
>
>>If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with
>>the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made
>>between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance
>>schedules and the new MM.
>
> Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes:
>
> I think its because-
>
> 1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the oil..there's no chemical
> analysis machine in the car anywhere. So they have no way of knowing
> exactly what the state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure
> as heck doesn't do anything other than remember last reset and supposedly
> factors like starts and acceleration, etc...which I really have a hard
> time believing is that effective if at all.
>
> 2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the oil, there needs
> to be no distinction between the two types of oils.
>
> 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we should
> follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e.
> Mobil 1's guidelines.
>
> 4) Since we gotta use the new guidelines, there's no need for anything
> other than Honda's recommendation with regular oil.
>
> 5) Possibly there is some extreme conspiracy whereas there's so much money
> to be made on oil, that no one wants us to know that synthetic oil is
> better. It seems that every one that offers a synthetic oil also offers a
> regular. Why should a company cut its main profit off by spilling the
> beans completely?
>
> 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to
> #5.
>
>
> Peace,
> Polfus

"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
> "Elle" > wrote
>
>> "Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
>>> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to
>>> reset the Maintenance Minder?
>>
>>> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the
>>> schedule will be off.
>
>> Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely
>> absolve the owner of responsibility when it comes to
>> maintenance.
>
> That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions
> about the Maintenance Minder's actual schedule are valid.
>
> You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply
> gimme a general recommendation or two regarding the engine
> oil.

Ditto what Seth said, except I think you may need a stronger
foundation in the engineering here to reason your way
through this, with all due respect. Based on my experience,
I figure automotive engineers know that, in fact, oil
temperature, number of starts, and the other things cited
earlier correlate well with how quickly the oil breaks down.
These engineering and business types are mostly reasonable
people, ya know. They did not just make up that oil
breakdown depends largely on all the aforementioned
conditions.

I should add I base some of my faith on a Consumer Reports
article that studied taxicabs in NYC and especially oil
quality, so as to give counsel on when to change oil. IIRC,
even with the severe duty of cabs, CR found changing the oil
every 7000 miles or so should be fine. Google for the whole
article.

>> The MM computer does take into account distance driven.
>
> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its
> electronic brain; i.e. "..when did I last get reset?"

If this were true, then the MM really would not serve a
purpose.

I think it's taking miles driven under X, Y, and Z
conditions and putting this into an algorithm.

> So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info
> for their general plan for oil changes and filter changes
> in case Ye Olde MM fails...if they did that, I don't think
> we'd be having this conversation right now.

Shucks, Polfus, maybe Honda should print the local city bus
schedule in each owner's manual as well. This would be the
ultimate backup.

The point is there are limits. Tradeoffs. Engineers and the
business managers weigh tradeoffs. If you can't list a dozen
potential tradeoffs for the MM system right now, even if
you're just a beginner with cars, then you're not seeing the
whole picture. For now, Honda figures the MM design is an
asset to the business.

For all I know some country somewhere also is looking to
come down on auto manufacturers for all that used engine
oil, radiator coolant, etc. being dumped into the
environment. Getting people who drive their cars under
normal conditions to discard the "change the oil every 3k
miles" is not going to be easy. But if it's legislated by
some country or another... whence the MM.

>>If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least
>>oil changes, with the caveat that I'd like more input on
>>why there is no distinction made between synthetic and
>>non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance
>>schedules and the new MM.
>
> Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes:
>
> I think its because-
>
> 1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the
> oil..there's no chemical analysis machine in the car
> anywhere. So they have no way of knowing exactly what the
> state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure
> as heck doesn't do anything other than remember last reset
> and supposedly factors like starts and acceleration,
> etc...which I really have a hard time believing is that
> effective if at all.

Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry
monitor on every Honda automobile?

> 2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the
> oil, there needs to be no distinction between the two
> types of oils.
>
> 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that
> point that we should follow the new recommendations of the
> synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil 1's guidelines.

Where does Honda say this? I just checked, at random, a 2002
Civic owner's manual. It says follow the same maintenance
schedule as one would for non-synth oil.

> 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and
> refer back to #5.

I agree, and I do not say this casually. It's what's behind
the counsel here to never trust a dealership when it comes
to fixing and maintaining one's car.

"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote in message
...
>
> "Seth" > wrote
>
>>> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every
>>> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever.
>>
>> But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it.
>
> Well help me then..what is their current thinking?

That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive so
little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it anyhow.

>> No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM,
>> then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age.
>
> ??
>
> They are saying that if it doesn't go off its not 'cause of failure to the
> system, but because the car hasn't been driven enough to make it
> activate..i.e. enough miles driven to warrant oil change?
>
> If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you.

Yes, that's what I was saying.

> If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying.
>
> And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't
> believe it did.

I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say.

>> No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing
>> sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style
>> of driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in.
>
> So you're saying that Honda is saying that "..don't worry..the MM *WILL*
> work and kick in, but if you don't see the might go off, then you must not
> be driving a lot so just change once a year".
>
> Thats it?

As I understand it, yes.

>> Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed.
>
> Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been
> looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I
> think you're saying.

I think we're on the same page.

>>> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain;
>>> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?"
>
>> More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have
>> they affected the oil since I was last reset.
>
> Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general?

Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I
perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive
engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the
engineers who know more than I.

I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my
wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage
gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till
flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and my
car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong.

>> Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is
>> neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change
>> the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%.
>
> Yeah...I did read my manual
>
> Peace,
> Polfus
>

Polfus wrote:
>
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote
>
>> In article >,
>> "Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote:
>>
>>> > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the
>>> owner > of
>>> > responsibility when it comes to maintenance.
>>>
>>> That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the
>>> Maintenance
>>> Minder's actual schedule are valid.
>>
>> But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual,
>> asking them here is not valid.
>
> No, they most certainly are not answered explicitly in the owner's manual.
>
> But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple
> questions..I have my manual in hand and await your scary knowledge:
>
> 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at?

at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the
gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a
gauge.



> 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change
> actually due?

do you notice if you forget to fill with gas? because the gauge will
show "empty" if you don't re-set.


>
> Tell me where this is in the manual, for starters, and I'll send you a
> case of Coors.
>
> Otherwise you can kiss my lilly white (_l_).
>

bottom line - you're just humping virtually every post in sight,
presumably because you're bored. have your parents grounded you for
something?

and you post unspeakable crap. "osmolarity", "chemical structure" and
spectrometry for example, when you haven't the slightest idea what those
things are.

the gauge uses a formula built up over time. if the input [time, rpms,
throttle, temp, etc.] are measured, and correlated to output by honda's
engineers, the output can be measured to a very high degree of accuracy.
not "trusting" it and continuing to bleat about mileage schedules is
like not trusting the engine computer to inject the right amount of gas
- an utterly ridiculous concept. as for synthetics, as per the
algorithm, input is known. accumulated combustion product buildup rate,
that this algorithm models, will be the same regardless of oil. can
synthetics run longer? sure. but the engineering "safe" solution is to
go on the level of combustion product accumulation, not rely on variance
in oil formulation.

now, you go ahead and hump this post polfus. maybe even throw in a few
naughty cuss words. then go to bed and let your mommy read you a story
about the big bad oil bears and how they'll eat your [daddy's] car if
you don't change the oil every 3k miles.

On Feb 4, 9:47 pm, "Seth" > wrote:
snip
>
> I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my
> wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage
> gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till
> flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and my
> car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong.
>

Super!
Please review your oil change receipts, calculate the average oil
change interval (miles) and post that.

For those not trusting the MM, how's that for a benchmark?

Polfus wrote:
> <snip crap>

> Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so...

no you don't - analysis is when you don't know what the input is - it's
if you're flying blind. [and installing gas chromatography instruments
on a car is a ridiculous concept btw.]

> whats wrong with gas
> chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example?

with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be an
incredible expense for almost no practical benefit.

Polfus wrote:
>
> "Seth" > wrote
>
>>>
>>> And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't
>>> believe it did.
>>
>> I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say.
>
> Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional
> motor oil is 3 years.

"shelf life" is literal - it doesn't mean "installed in the vehicle".
when used, oils pick up the combustion product from the engine - this
includes acids and other nasties that slowly corrode. if the oil is
clean and unused, sure, you can just let it stand. but if it's been
used, like a vehicle that's low mileage, you still need to change the
oil to remove these contaminants.



>
> So that brings us back to what I was saying to begin with...
>
> Peace,
> Polfus

"ACAR" > wrote
> On Feb 4, 9:47 pm, "Seth" >
> wrote:
> snip
>>
>> I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the
>> same MM as my
>> wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated
>> (no percentage
>> gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change
>> the oil till
>> flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is
>> these days) and my
>> car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going
>> strong.
>>
>
> Super!
> Please review your oil change receipts, calculate the
> average oil
> change interval (miles) and post that.
>
> For those not trusting the MM, how's that for a benchmark?

To update the thread, we do have some reports on when the MM
is calling for an oil change:
Jan 21 JXStern and Elliot Richmond: About every 6k miles,
twice now.
Jan 13 Joe L.: About every 6k miles, twice now.
Aug 5 2007 Santos: About every 6500-6800 miles, four times.
Dec 4 2006 John H.: About every 7k miles.

E wrote
"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
> so I can know how much to set aside when a big service job
> is coming up..know what I mean? Stuff that I can't do
> myself.

I thought the MM does sort of organize things so one can
tell readily whether "Major service" with myriad items is
due, and when a simply oil change is due.

>> These engineering and business types are mostly
>> reasonable people, ya know.
>
> Well...at least the engineering types are

Engineers are as corrupted by the almighty buck as the next
guy. Case in point: The Big Dig (Boston tunnel) collapsed a
few years ago killing a woman. It's pretty clear the
engineers made some poor choices based in economics (= more
profit for their companies).

The Army Corps of Engineers has been under fire since
Hurricane Katrina for accepting levy design. From my
experience, the truth is that to keep one's job in
engineering one had better bring things in ostensibly safe
but also under budget. It was the people as much as anything
that demanded cheap. An ethical engineer with the Army Corps
is in a tough position. His/her only choice is to stick
around and hope to make things a little safer but really not
safe enough. Or leave.

The auto industry has had many engineers who have bowed to
economic demands to keep their jobs. That's pointing a
finger at the engineers, mind you, not the business people.
Sometimes the good fight is worth it. You say, "No. I am not
going to do this." The really intelligent ones discreetly
point out the bad publicity for putting in unsafe
engineering blah blah will cost more than the company stands
to make.

>> They did not just make up that oil breakdown depends
>> largely on all the aforementioned conditions.
>
> Agreed. Though some degree of it may be marketing, you may
> admit.

Marketing for selling those cars with a MM, sure. Sales guy
says, "And look at the 2008 model's Maintenance Minder! This
car is a bargain for all that the MM provides!"

Apart from the higher purchase price the MM produces, I
think the MM does likely save money for maintenance.

Does the maintenance savings justify the extra initial
purchase price? Maybe.

>> I should add I base some of my faith on a Consumer
>> Reports article that studied taxicabs in NYC and
>> especially oil quality, so as to give counsel on when to
>> change oil. IIRC, even with the severe duty of cabs, CR
>> found changing the oil every 7000 miles or so should be
>> fine. Google for the whole article.
>
> Read it already...here's another one, some videos . Check
> out the Las Vegas one:
>
> "Mobil 1 Extended Performance Field Testing"
>
> http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...Videos/TV.aspx

Mobil oil did this. Ya think there's a conflict of interest?


>> The point is there are limits. Tradeoffs. Engineers and
>> the business managers weigh tradeoffs. If you can't list
>> a dozen potential tradeoffs for the MM system right now,
>> even if you're just a beginner with cars, then you're not
>> seeing the whole picture. For now, Honda figures the MM
>> design is an asset to the business.
>
> Agreed.
>
> And a dozen tradeoffs?

Added cost of MM vs. possible lower sales due to higher
price of car.

Will having a rad coolant change feature in the MM justify
the added cost of this feature? Same goes for the other
dozen or so items the MM reports on.

Volume taken by MM vs. using the space for a larger
windshield washer bottle <wink>

Locating Maintenance Minder in XYZ vs. ABC, pros and cons.

MM sensor etc. failure rate cost vs. cost of doing
maintenance prematurely over life of car.

Your tradeoffs are in the same vein.

Point is it's not perfect. Honda estimates it to be an
improvement and of course worth every penny to customers.
;-)

>> Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry
>> monitor on every Honda automobile?
>
> Cost? Beats me...tell me please.

Cost. Space.

Evidently BMW and Mercedes do have an oil chemistry monitor
built into their cars, as Tegger noted recently and as I
just confirmed.

I also see something called an "Intellistick" available for
the wealthy playboy grease monkey to purchase for monitoring
oil chemistry.

$500.


>>> 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that
>>> point that we should follow the new recommendations of
>>> the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil 1's
>>> guidelines.
>>
>> Where does Honda say this? I just checked, at random, a
>> 2002 Civic owner's manual. It says follow the same
>> maintenance schedule as one would for non-synth oil.
>
> Dude..my bad. Its the same..Honda says in the 2008 as well
> to do what it says in the information display, even when
> using synthetic.
>
>>> 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money,
>>> and refer back to #5.
>>
>> I agree, and I do not say this casually. It's what's
>> behind the counsel here to never trust a dealership when
>> it comes to fixing and maintaining one's car.
>
> Problem is we gotta trust 'em some...

Most folks do indeed have to. Their time is too valuable to
hang out here.

> scary to know whats the truth, so thats another reason why
> I would like all the info I could get on my car,
> especially on things like changing oil/filter and some
> kind of guideline other that "trust the computer and shut
> up".

Agreed.

"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote in message
...
>
> "Seth" > wrote
>
>> That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive
>> so little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it
>> anyhow.
>
> No...I mean do you know what Honda's or the motor oil dudes say about
> changing oil...the interval, that is?

Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no
other.

>> Yes, that's what I was saying.
>
> Outstanding.
>
>> I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say.
>
> I wonder....I don't believe that needs changing every year, even if
> sitting around undriven.

I have no scientific fact, only that logically it makes sense. It has
contaminants eating away at it even if just sitting there.

>> I think we're on the same page.
>
> Yup.
>
>> Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I
>> perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive
>> engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the
>> engineers who know more than I.
>
> Well...I do too, or else I wouldn't have spent my cash on an Accord!
>
>> I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my
>> wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage
>> gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till
>> flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and
>> my car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong.
>
> That's awesome.....I was just mentioning that the 200k mark is a big one,
> and not really the norm. You have definately gotten your money's worth
> with that '01 Accord. How long you predict it shall last..mileage wise?

Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the
transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems (except
for the occasional code (P0980 I think)) it is already on borrowed time.