Methyl Hydrate

"Kaz Kylheku" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>
> They are idiots whose idea does not hold "dihydrogen oxide".
>
> Alcohols like methanol and ethanol do not even mix with gasoline.
!WRONG!!!!!!!!!!



> The ethanol-blended gasoline you can buy at the pump is specially
> formulated. Emulsifiers are used to mix it in.
!WRONG!!!!!!!


> You don't just dump some alcohol into a vat of gasoline and stir it
> with a stick.

!!Finally correct...You don't, but if you did, it would go into solution
unless you get too much water in it. If you do, it will separate. Ethanol
is much more forgiving than methanol. The higher alcohols are even
more forgiving, but begin to behave more like ordinary alkanes...that is
to say, the effect of the oxygen in the molecule is effectively diluted.

Raymond J. Henry wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:48:59 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>The way it works is rather simple, since alcohol has less energy and it
>>displaces fuel, your engine has less power and produces less pollutants.
>>
>
>
> I'll never try to become a chemist or an engineer, but you're off
> track on this one. ET's show a different story around here.
>
> Say, why would they build alcohol powered race cars if it wasn't
> working?

The methanol has a MUCH higher octane than most gasolines. Thus one can
use a higher compression ratio. With a higher compression ratio the
output of the engine is higher in terms of horsepower per cubic inch.
Most racing santioning bodies limit engine size by capacity (cubic
inches). The efficiency in terms of horsepower per gallon of fuel is
much less important than horsepower per cubic inch.

The pollution is a MUCH more complex issue. Methanol and ethanol do
produce LESS CO than gasoline, because they are oxygenated fuels.
Alcohols DO produce more aldehyde emissions. The specific ones are not
regulated, though.

Because of the high compression ratios, there would be a tendency to
increase HOX levels, but the cooler combustion due to richer mixture
when running methanol helps alleviate the NOX. I have never seen a good
study on the NOX production of racing engines, though.

This cooling effect is another reason for use of alcohol in a racing
engine. Gasoline will not ignite properly with a very rich mixture,
whereas methanol WILL. The very rich mixture cools valves and piston
heads. People who tried running the old Offies on gasoline ran into
lots of problems.

People tend to confuse octane and energy delivered on detonation...leads
to some confusion sometimes. Meth and Eth are higher octane, but deliver
less energy when burned than gasoline.

So to use it in a passenger car with low compression and no forced
induction, it creates less power per volume than an equal amount of
straight gas, but also a more controlled (and possibly more complete)
combustion event.

In racing engines, the idea is to cram the most mixture into the
cylinder that can possibly be burned efficiently, so alcohol fuels'
power defecit is overcome by sheer volume delivered....by contrast, the
passenger car's purpose is to deliver the LEAST amount of fuel possible
for a stable idle and reasonable power output, so the equation is
reversed.


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Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> mark wrote:
> > I see lots of folks who claim that putting an amount of methyl hydrate
> > in the tank prior to an emissions test, can help lower HC/CO
>
> They are idiots whose idea does not hold "dihydrogen oxide".

Congratulations. Out of an honest guess of forty different sources,
you are the only one who diss'es the theory :-) Of the forty, about
half actually posted their before and after results from their e-tests
and the results seemed to be remarkable

>
> If you think ethanol-blended gasoline will reduce your emissions, just
> go out and fill up with it.

I think you misunderstood the statement of "putting an amount" into the
tank, to mean filling up the whole tank. What I have come up with is
something like 10% methyl hydrate, in about half a tank. Such a small
amount would be rather benign, regardless of whether it helped or not.

Plus, I never said that it would help, I said others believed that,
and I was looking for experiences and comments from those who may have
tried it. You are making too many assumptions

>
> I would also suspect that the methanol available in hardware stores
> probably contains varying amounts of water, which is another good
> reason not to put it into your tank.

And that is why I have not run out and just bought stuff that 'appears'
to be methyl hydrate. Some of it is highly questionabl. Methyl Hydrate
would be 99% alcohol, and 1% water. Anything other than that, is not
pure Methyl Hydrate, near as I can figure, which is why I didn't buy
any of that stuff, and was hoping to find someone who knew of a brand
name. Guess you don't?

>
> > A new cat is the best solution, but being jobless and having few bucks
> > to spend, I just need to get past this time to keep moving ahead.
>
> Is it a fuel-injected car or carbureted? What make, model, year? How
> many miles?

1984 Chevette four banger, carb, 180,000 miles 140lb compression in
each cylinder, +/- a few lbs, burns no apparent amount of oil, gets
40mpg on the freeway, and about 33 around town. I am the original
owner, it has been meticulously cared for since the day I bought it.

>
> Maybe it just needs a bit of a tune up.

Now you really don't think someone would just drive into an e-test with
an older car without at least a tune-up, right? :-)

>
> Also, it could be that the ignition timing is off.

No one in their right mind goes to an expensive, time consuming e-test
without a tuneup first.
>
> So I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that a catalytic converter is the
> thing. Getting a new cat for the beater could turn out to be a complete
> waste of money.

Yes, it could, it was a "beater" but it really isn't. Old? Yes. Beat?
No. Please don't rush to the conclusion that I don't know how to take
care of a car and keep it tuned and running well.

>
> Can you answer the question how many miles ago did that car have the
> last, oh, sparkplug change?

Oh, how about a day before the test last year, when it passed, with the
HC right on the top of the allowed column, and CO nearly over the top?
And again, last weekend in prep for the test?

>
> Well, did /you/ graduate from highschool? Yet somehow you don't have
> any more of a clue that methanol, methyl alcohol, wood alcohol and
> methyl hydrate are the same stuff than they do. Out of 100 randomly
> picked USA highschool graduates, how many do you think would know that?
> How about college graduates, even?

Fact is, wood alcohol contains methyl, but it is NOT 99% pure methyl
hydrate. Its says so right on the can. I know that because I graduated
college and can read.

I figure that with forty rational saying it will work, and giving
examples and explanations of why, up against what you said, and the
way you said it, forty are right, and you have no idea what you are
talking about.

Thanks a lot,

Mark

"mark" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> Fact is, wood alcohol contains methyl, but it is NOT 99% pure methyl
> hydrate. Its says so right on the can. I know that because I graduated
> college and can read.

Wood alcohol is a common name for methanol. The name implies nothing
about the purity. Don't know what purity was on the can you saw, but it
has no direct relationship to the name.

I graduated from college...making all those little calibration marks was too
much work.

wrote:
> > The ethanol-blended gasoline you can buy at the pump is specially
> > formulated. Emulsifiers are used to mix it in.
> !WRONG!!!!!!!

My bad; this applies to ethanol blended with diesel fuel, not gasoline.

mark wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> > If you think ethanol-blended gasoline will reduce your emissions, just
> > go out and fill up with it.
>
> I think you misunderstood the statement of "putting an amount" into the
> tank, to mean filling up the whole tank.

Not at all; I only meant that the effect of having around 10% alcohol
in your gas can be achieved by filling up with ethanol-blended
gasoline. Does it have to be methanol?

> > I would also suspect that the methanol available in hardware stores
> > probably contains varying amounts of water, which is another good
> > reason not to put it into your tank.
>
> And that is why I have not run out and just bought stuff that 'appears'
> to be methyl hydrate.

There is a form of methanol that are intended to be dropped into the
tank, namely methanol packaged and sold as fuel-line antifreeze. Not
all such antifreezes are methanol.

If you live in a warm climate, finding a retail outlet that carries
fuel-line antifreeze could be a bit of a problem. It tends to come in
small bottles too, which are overpriced for what it is.

Brand name? How about Heet. (Not Iso-Heet, that is made from
isopropanol). Regular Heet is 99% methanol and 1% of some proprietary
additive.

FAQ:

http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/faqs_heet.asp

Kaz Kylheku wrote:

>
> Brand name? How about Heet. (Not Iso-Heet, that is made from
> isopropanol). Regular Heet is 99% methanol and 1% of some proprietary
> additive.
>
> FAQ:
>
> http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/faqs_heet.asp

Thanks. I am off to check that out. I am sure they will restrict the
recommended amount to where it would not have the effect that a gallon,
to ten gallon of gas would have, which are the kinds of numbers I have
been reading about.

Just trying to learn, and seeing what other people know.

There is no ethanol where I live, at least not yet. I recall using it,
or probably a weak sister of it, many, many years ago, and after I
filled the tank, I could barely get my car home. It wasn't pinging, it
was banging, and clanking.
Not a good experience for sure..... :-)

Much obliged.

Mark

Raymond J. Henry > wrote in article
>...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:48:59 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> I'll never try to become a chemist or an engineer, but you're off
> track on this one. ET's show a different story around here.
>
> Say, why would they build alcohol powered race cars if it wasn't
> working?
>



Alcohols contain fewer BTUs than gasoline.

Heat = Horsepower. It is the heated expansion of gases in the cylinder that
drives the pistons downward.

The reason alcohols are used as racing fuels is that you can run so much
more compression with them. They are less prone to detonation than
gasoline.

The horsepower in alcohol-fueled racing enginse comes from the 16:1 or 17:1
compression ratios - not the fuel.

When running any alcohol as a fuel, the general rule of thumb is that you
must run twice the volume of alcohol as gasoline.

Alcohol burns much cooler than gasoline. It is this reason that Indy-type
car sanctioning bodies REQUIRE alcohol as a fuel. This came about shortly
after the tragic gasoline-fueled inferno at Indianapolis in the '60s that
killed Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald.......

......that, plus the fact that alcohol fires can be doused with ordinary
water.

I haven't run Methanol for a while, but I can remember the car coming in
after a 35 lap feature with a quarter-inch of frost on the intake manifold
on a steamy August night.


You're smart to not try becoming a chemist or engineer!

Raymond J. Henry > wrote in article
>...
>
> He informs me that he's seen dyno tests improve using blended fuel,
> and that reflects exactly what I've seen in about 98% of the vehicles
> I've used it in. My 1986 Aries sees 2 MPG over unblended fuels, but
> tends to crank a rotation or two longer prior to start on warm days.
> My Fiats and Volvos all responded very favorably to it, whereas my
> stock NA V8 engines ran the scale between moderate to zero change.
>


You are definitely the exception to the rule......

Everybody else in North America experiences a drop in fuel mileage when the
winter blends - containing higher percentages of alcohol, thus fewer BTU -
are introduced.

If your "K-Car" fuel mileage IMPROVES on an alcohol/gasoline blend over
straight gasoline, then you need some serious tuning work.