Methyl Hydrate

I see lots of folks who claim that putting an amount of methyl hydrate
in the tank prior to an emissions test, can help lower HC/CO

I am considering giving it a try on my older vehicle with a car that is
giving me fits being just barely over the edge on both HC and CO, but
believe it or not, I am not finding it in the hardware store..... Lots
of wood alchohol, methanol, and other branded names, and home depot
seems to be manned by dingalings who have no idea.

A new cat is the best solution, but being jobless and having few bucks
to spend, I just need to get past this time to keep moving ahead.

Is methly hydrate just a generic name, and something that I need to
read all the labels to find? Is there a product name I should be
looking for? I wish these stores had people running the depts. who at
least graduated high school....

Much obliged for any help or suggestions. I really don't want to
waste my car putting something wrong in the tank.

Mark

"mark" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I see lots of folks who claim that putting an amount of methyl hydrate
> in the tank prior to an emissions test, can help lower HC/CO

They are talking about methanol, in a rather goofy way.

On 20 Jun 2006 18:45:14 -0700, "mark" >
wrote:

>I see lots of folks who claim that putting an amount of methyl hydrate
>in the tank prior to an emissions test, can help lower HC/CO
>


I've seen where this works. However, you need to run a good couple of
tanks through prior to the test. What you want is 10 ethanol or 5%
methanol.

If you're mixing your own, you may want to try a farmers supply
outlet. When I was desperately seeking methanol in the U.S. prior to
them waking up to the benefits of it, the only place I could find it
was in farmer's supply outlets. Sold as simple gas line antifreeze.

Despite the added cost of dumping into the tank prior to fueling,
doing so saved me a ton of cash in mileage on my trip, and completely
removed the pre-ignition on my ~10:1 four cylinder.

"mark" > wrote in
oups.com:


>
> Is methly hydrate just a generic name, and something that I need to
> read all the labels to find? Is there a product name I should be
> looking for? I wish these stores had people running the depts. who at
> least graduated high school....



Methyl hydrate = methanol. It has other names too.
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_alcohol.html



--
TeGGeR®

"mark" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I see lots of folks who claim that putting an amount of methyl hydrate
> in the tank prior to an emissions test, can help lower HC/CO
>
> I am considering giving it a try on my older vehicle with a car that is
> giving me fits being just barely over the edge on both HC and CO,

HEET gas tank dryer is the same thing.

The way it works is rather simple, since alcohol has less energy and it
displaces fuel, your engine has less power and produces less pollutants.

But the caveat is that it only works if the HCs are coming from
gasoline combustion.

If the real problem is that oil is being burned in the combusion chamber
along with gasoline, due to bad rings or due to valve seal leaks, and
that is why your HC's are high, then dumping alcohol into the gas tank
will do absolutely nothing. It does not take a lot of oil burning to
raise HC's past the legal limit. In fact, much less oil burning than is
needed to produce the signature "blue smoke exhaust"

About 4 months ago some friends of ours moved and had a Toyota
Tercel (real POS) that was not passing emissions that they could not
take with them, and as a favor I sold it for them. Because I of course
wanted to get the best money for it and because I did not want to put
any serious money into fixing the engine problems with it, since I was
going to sell it, I decided to try every low-ball cheap trick in the
emissions passing book. And as a point, my friends had got it through
emissions 2 years earlier by the bottle-of-magic-fluid in the gas tank
routine. It also helped that I could put the costs of the various magic
fluids against the proceeds from the vehicle sale, and I had always wanted
to try out the mystery fluids and see if any would work. So I had
zero financial risk, I could play as much as I wanted, and if I struck
it lucky my friends would benefit from the increased sale price that
a good inspection report would produce.

After trying many different things and putting several hundred miles on
it burning through partial gas tank after partial gas tank (the usual trick
is to put the magic fluids in when the tank is down to it's last gallon
in order to maximize their concentration) I can say with absolute
certainty that none of the "emissions passing fluids" on the market
that you pour into your gas tank, and none of the other magic fluids
(like HEET) that are sold ostensibly for legal purposes but are really
bought to try to snake past emissions, will make one iota of difference
if the engine is polluting simply because it's worn out.

If the car is polluting because the catcon has decreased efficiency, and
ONLY if it's polluting because the catcon has decreased efficiency, THEN
as many bottles of HEET as you dare to put into the tank may possibly
allow you to squeak by.

But is is very rare that a catcon will just up and fail like that. The vast
majority
of the time the catcon fails because the engine is out of tune and is not
producing exhaust that has the chemistry that the catcon was designed
for. Either it's too rich in which case the catcon gets sooted up or it's
too lean in which the catcon runs too hot and burns up. Shotgunners
will replace the catcon and think they fixed the problem, by the next
emissions inspection the new catcon is ruined. Unethical mechanics
will replace the catcon without fixing the other stuff because they know
the customer will have to come back the next year, and get another
catcon. As a result there are far too many ignoramuses running around
telling people to replace catcons when most of the time the problem
isn't the catcon at all.

>
> A new cat is the best solution, but being jobless and having few bucks
> to spend, I just need to get past this time to keep moving ahead.
>

Most states have waviers, if you are too poor to fix your car you can
get a wavier. Some states even have programs where they fix your car
at a reduced cost if you are poor. You need to investigate those options
first. But, you really ought to think hard about selling your car now
and buying a replacement. Some car buyers live in areas that don't
test for emissions and don't care if it passes or not, and a great many
other
buyers simply don't think to check for emissions. The buyers that bought
my friends Toyota, for example, paid $1000 for it, believe it or not,
and the car was puffing smoke when they test drove it - they were just
too unobservant to notice that. If your car sounds like it's running
very smoothly then now is the time to dump it, while you can still get
some money out of it.

Ted

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

>
> Most states have waviers, if you are too poor to fix your car you can
> get a wavier. Some states even have programs where they fix your car
> at a reduced cost if you are poor. You need to investigate those options
> first.

Thanks. I live in Utah, and they said that after I paid $400 for
repairs, I could get a waiver, and I would have to do it all again next
year. Not a chance :-) Couldn't even sell a car this old for much more
than that.....

>But, you really ought to think hard about selling your car now
> and buying a replacement.

If I could afford a newer car....... but really, I like the car, and as
the original owner, it is in great shape, and I keep it because of
40mpg on the freeway, and 33 around town. :-)

> If your car sounds like it's running
> very smoothly then now is the time to dump it, while you can still get
> some money out of it.
>

Thanks Ted. I appreciate your experiences, and taking the time to pass
them on. I was unaware of the burning oil issue. The engine is in
pretty good shape, and I guess I will be finding out of its oil or a
dead cat :-) Compression checks show all is well. I wish I could do a
leak down test as well.. <shrug>

What you and others have pointed out to me has made me realize what may
be the overall problem, because, without getting too long winded <g> I
run without the EGR valve connected, and only use it when I go to
inspection. FWIW, the thermal vacuum switch is no good, and the car
won't run with EGR connected when its cold, so it stays off.
Replacements for the TVS are expensive, and not really available
anyway, being a 1984. its possible that running without EGR may have
overheated the CAT, and done it in as you pointed out can happen, since
the emissions are not that far off, so if I replace the cat, (which is
probably my only legal, ethical route) and don't deal with the EGR
problem, you may be right that I will be getting a new cat again,
sooner, than later....

I did replace the plugs yesterday, and noted that they were showing
things to be on the lean side, which as never happened before so
perhaps I am on to something.....

I appreciate you throwing all that out there for consideration. Not
sure if I am right, but its important to know that so I can make the
right choices.

Much obliged,


Mark

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:48:59 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:


>
>The way it works is rather simple, since alcohol has less energy and it
>displaces fuel, your engine has less power and produces less pollutants.
>

I'll never try to become a chemist or an engineer, but you're off
track on this one. ET's show a different story around here.

Say, why would they build alcohol powered race cars if it wasn't
working?

Raymond J. Henry wrote:

> I'll never try to become a chemist or an engineer, but you're off
> track on this one. ET's show a different story around here.
>
> Say, why would they build alcohol powered race cars if it wasn't
> working?

Seems to me, if you build it from the ground up for alcohol, it would
be fine, and can be used to generate lots of power, but just putting
into a FI or Carb set up for gas would cause a decrease in power. Just
a guess....

Mark

On 21 Jun 2006 15:18:01 -0700, "mark" >
wrote:

>
>Raymond J. Henry wrote:
>
>> I'll never try to become a chemist or an engineer, but you're off
>> track on this one. ET's show a different story around here.
>>
>> Say, why would they build alcohol powered race cars if it wasn't
>> working?
>
>Seems to me, if you build it from the ground up for alcohol, it would
>be fine, and can be used to generate lots of power, but just putting
>into a FI or Carb set up for gas would cause a decrease in power. Just
>a guess....
>
>Mark

Bad guess. Seems that adding it to gasoline provides a more controlled
burn, according to a friend of mine that builds race engines. He used
a 10% methanol blended fuel himself. In fact, he even uses it in his
stock mid-90's GMC 1/2 ton.

He informs me that he's seen dyno tests improve using blended fuel,
and that reflects exactly what I've seen in about 98% of the vehicles
I've used it in. My 1986 Aries sees 2 MPG over unblended fuels, but
tends to crank a rotation or two longer prior to start on warm days.
My Fiats and Volvos all responded very favorably to it, whereas my
stock NA V8 engines ran the scale between moderate to zero change.

Raise the compression, and it's time to get out the blended fuel.
Works great, as it has a higher effective octane.

He's some reading, if you're so inclined... He directed me to this
site, I'll take a look at it when I have time. All I know is that at
-40, I better have blended fuel. And if I want my car to have more
power, I better have blended fuel (except if it's a worn-out V8).

http://www.distill.com/World-Fuel-Ethanol-A&O-2004.html

mark wrote:
> I see lots of folks who claim that putting an amount of methyl hydrate
> in the tank prior to an emissions test, can help lower HC/CO

They are idiots whose idea does not hold "dihydrogen oxide".

Alcohols like methanol and ethanol do not even mix with gasoline.

The ethanol-blended gasoline you can buy at the pump is specially
formulated. Emulsifiers are used to mix it in.

You don't just dump some alcohol into a vat of gasoline and stir it
with a stick.

If you think ethanol-blended gasoline will reduce your emissions, just
go out and fill up with it.

> I am considering giving it a try on my older vehicle with a car that is
> giving me fits being just barely over the edge on both HC and CO, but
> believe it or not, I am not finding it in the hardware store..... Lots
> of wood alchohol, methanol, and other branded names, and home depot
> seems to be manned by dingalings who have no idea.

Methanol /is/ methyl hydrate. Chemical formula CH3OH. A carbon atom
with three hydrogens stuck on it and an OH. Wood alcohol is also the
same thing.

I would also suspect that the methanol available in hardware stores
probably contains varying amounts of water, which is another good
reason not to put it into your tank.

> A new cat is the best solution, but being jobless and having few bucks
> to spend, I just need to get past this time to keep moving ahead.

Is it a fuel-injected car or carbureted? What make, model, year? How
many miles?

Maybe it just needs a bit of a tune up.

Too much hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide could simply indicate that
it's running too rich: a bit too much fuel in the fuel/air mixture.

Also, it could be that the ignition timing is off.

What else? In fuel-injected cars, the amount of fuel that is mixed
with the air is determined by measurements from sensors like the mass
airflow sensor and the oxygen sensor. Those have to work right,
obviously.

Maybe the fuel injectors are squirting instead of spraying, because
they are dirty.

Maybe the car is burning too much oil that is getting past worn valve
stem seals and rings. (Don't assume that the hydrocarbons came from
gasoline only!) How quickly does the car consume oil?

So I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that a catalytic converter is the
thing. Getting a new cat for the beater could turn out to be a complete
waste of money.

Can you answer the question how many miles ago did that car have the
last, oh, sparkplug change?

> Is methly hydrate just a generic name, and something that I need to
> read all the labels to find? Is there a product name I should be
> looking for? I wish these stores had people running the depts. who at
> least graduated high school....

Well, did /you/ graduate from highschool? Yet somehow you don't have
any more of a clue that methanol, methyl alcohol, wood alcohol and
methyl hydrate are the same stuff than they do. Out of 100 randomly
picked USA highschool graduates, how many do you think would know that?
How about college graduates, even?

People who know things like that don't want to work in retail. Besides,
if retail actually paid them what they are worth, you would have to pay
a heck of a lot more for that methyl hydrate. So it's cheaper for you
if they are dumb and you know exactly what you want.