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#11
August 5th 13, 04:10 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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FWD cars ruin brick paving?
On 08/04/2013 05:24 PM, T0m $herman wrote:
> On 8/3/2013 2:32 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote: >> >> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the >> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A >> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do. >> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single >> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more >> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual >> wheel non-steerable axles. >> > Per AASHTO 1993, a fully loaded garbage truck is equal to about 9,500 > sub 2-ton passenger vehicles for pavement damage. > ok tom, we know you're the highway engineer - where in your opinion could this "fwd" thing come from? -- fact check required 
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#13
August 5th 13, 04:43 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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FWD cars ruin brick paving?
On 8/4/2013 10:10 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/04/2013 05:24 PM, T0m $herman wrote: >> On 8/3/2013 2:32 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote: >>> >>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the >>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A >>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do. >>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single >>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more >>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual >>> wheel non-steerable axles. >>> >> Per AASHTO 1993, a fully loaded garbage truck is equal to about 9,500 >> sub 2-ton passenger vehicles for pavement damage. >> > > ok tom, we know you're the highway engineer - where in your opinion > could this "fwd" thing come from? > No idea - urban legend? Unless people are driving FWD cars with locked differentials, but I have only seen those at the track (for obvious reasons). -- T0m $herm@n
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#14
August 5th 13, 08:09 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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FWD cars ruin brick paving?
On Sun, 4 Aug 2013 06:53:08 -0700 (PDT), JR >
wrote: >On Saturday, August 3, 2013 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, jim beam wrote: >> On 08/03/2013 07:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote: >> >> > On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a > >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote: >> >> >>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years. >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship? >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> to the higher stress of racing cars. >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over, >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels, >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment. >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> Is this plausible? >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news, >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the >> >> >>> >> >> >>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A >> >> >>> >> >> >>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single >> >> >>> >> >> >>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more >> >> >>> >> >> >>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual >> >> >>> >> >> >>> wheel non-steerable axles. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do. >> >> >> >> >> >> He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same. >> >> > >> >> > I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels >> >> > try's to make them turn, esp when backing up. >> >> > >> >> >> >> you guys are something else. on fwd, the drive forces are directly in >> >> the plane of the steering wheels. on rwd they're not, and the steering >> >> wheels can have considerable side forces on them. >> >> >> >> now, how about y'all discuss ways in which bricks can move? because if >> >> they can't, you can drive tanks on them all day without any problems. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> fact check required > >There are brick/cobblestone streets in Europe that are over 100 years old, and front wheel drive cars galore. I wonder how well those streets are holding up? Those are built quite a bit differently then a simple brick driveway for a house. And at that they do require maintenance.
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#15
August 5th 13, 08:11 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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FWD cars ruin brick paving?
On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 19:24:46 -0500, "T0m $herman"
> wrote: >On 8/3/2013 2:32 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote: >> >> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the >> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A >> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do. >> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single >> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more >> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual >> wheel non-steerable axles. >> >Per AASHTO 1993, a fully loaded garbage truck is equal to about 9,500 >sub 2-ton passenger vehicles for pavement damage. That's true, garbage trucks are typically far far more damaging then just about any other legal truck that doesn't require a special permit. That's because in order for them to have the needed turning radius and backup capability they have to use as few axles as possible but they still want to be able to load them to the gills. So they have VERY high axle loads.
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#16
August 5th 13, 03:42 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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FWD cars ruin brick paving?
On 08/05/2013 12:09 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2013 06:53:08 -0700 (PDT), JR > > wrote: > >> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, jim beam wrote: >>> On 08/03/2013 07:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a > >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote: >>> >>>>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> to the higher stress of racing cars. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over, >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels, >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Is this plausible? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news, >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wheel non-steerable axles. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels >>> >>>> try's to make them turn, esp when backing up. >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> you guys are something else. on fwd, the drive forces are directly in >>> >>> the plane of the steering wheels. on rwd they're not, and the steering >>> >>> wheels can have considerable side forces on them. >>> >>> >>> >>> now, how about y'all discuss ways in which bricks can move? because if >>> >>> they can't, you can drive tanks on them all day without any problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> fact check required >> >> There are brick/cobblestone streets in Europe that are over 100 years old, and front wheel drive cars galore. I wonder how well those streets are holding up? > > Those are built quite a bit differently then a simple brick driveway > for a house. and that's your answer - it's nothing to do with fwd. look into the difference between sharp and soft sand, and also consider the difference both the depth and the parallelism of the brick sides make = in storms, trees in the middle of a forest don't suffer as much damage as those on the edges - their touching canopies reinforce each other. > And at that they do require maintenance. yet some last, under very heavy loads, many decades. -- fact check required
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#17
August 5th 13, 04:13 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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FWD cars ruin brick paving?
On Monday, August 5, 2013 9:42:36 AM UTC-5, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/05/2013 12:09 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote: > > > On Sun, 4 Aug 2013 06:53:08 -0700 (PDT), JR > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, jim beam wrote: > > >>> On 08/03/2013 07:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a > > > >>> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>>>> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote: > > >>> > > >>>>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote: > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years. > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship? > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> to the higher stress of racing cars. > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over, > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels, > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment. > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> Is this plausible? > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news, > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage. > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do. > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>> wheel non-steerable axles. > > >>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>> My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do. > > >>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>> He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same. > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>>> I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels > > >>> > > >>>> try's to make them turn, esp when backing up. > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> you guys are something else. on fwd, the drive forces are directly in > > >>> > > >>> the plane of the steering wheels. on rwd they're not, and the steering > > >>> > > >>> wheels can have considerable side forces on them. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> now, how about y'all discuss ways in which bricks can move? because if > > >>> > > >>> they can't, you can drive tanks on them all day without any problems. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> fact check required > > >> > > >> There are brick/cobblestone streets in Europe that are over 100 years old, and front wheel drive cars galore. I wonder how well those streets are holding up? > > > > > > Those are built quite a bit differently then a simple brick driveway > > > for a house. > > > > and that's your answer - it's nothing to do with fwd. > > > > look into the difference between sharp and soft sand, and also consider > > the difference both the depth and the parallelism of the brick sides > > make = in storms, trees in the middle of a forest don't suffer as much > > damage as those on the edges - their touching canopies reinforce each other. > > > > > > > And at that they do require maintenance. > > > > yet some last, under very heavy loads, many decades. > > > > > > -- > > fact check required About eight years ago a garbage truck broke down in front of my house, I stepped over there and asked them if they want to use some of my tools to get it going. In Japan they have little bitty garbage trucks. Google,,, Japanese garbage trucks.
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