FWD cars ruin brick paving?

My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
to the higher stress of racing cars.
He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
Is this plausible?
I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.

On 08/02/2013 04:20 AM, wrote:
> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
> to the higher stress of racing cars.
> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
> Is this plausible?

not as a function of fwd. as a function of power steering, heavier
cars, modern wider tires and drivers that turn the wheel on the spot
rather than when the vehicle is rolling, possibly, but even then, all
those are irrelevant if the bricks are set well and fit tight.


> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
> road damage,

in europe, many big rigs have three trailer axles, not two. and they
have lots of "pavé" or brick roads. yes, it's theoretically more of an
issue, but when the brick is set right, it's simply not a problem.


> and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.

to set brick right, you need a proper substrate, properly compacted.
look up roman road construction as an example - some of those things are
still in use today.


--
fact check required

On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
>I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
>I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
>to the higher stress of racing cars.
>He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
>he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
>I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
>generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
>and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
>Is this plausible?
>I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.

There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
wheel non-steerable axles.

On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
>
>
> >My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
>
> >I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>
> >after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
>
> >I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
>
> >to the higher stress of racing cars.
>
> >He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
>
> >he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
>
> >I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
>
> >generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
>
> >and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
>
> >Is this plausible?
>
> >I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>
> >road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>
> >but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.
>
>
>
> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
>
> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
>
> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
>
> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
>
> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
>
> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
>
> wheel non-steerable axles.



My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do.

He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same.

On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a >
wrote:

>On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
>>
>> >I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>>
>> >after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
>>
>> >I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
>>
>> >to the higher stress of racing cars.
>>
>> >He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
>>
>> >he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
>>
>> >I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
>>
>> >generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
>>
>> >and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
>>
>> >Is this plausible?
>>
>> >I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>>
>> >road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>>
>> >but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
>>
>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
>>
>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
>>
>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
>>
>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
>>
>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
>>
>> wheel non-steerable axles.
>
>
>
>My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do.
>
>He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same.

I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels
try's to make them turn, esp when backing up.

On 08/03/2013 07:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a >
> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
>>>
>>>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>>>
>>>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
>>>
>>>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
>>>
>>>> to the higher stress of racing cars.
>>>
>>>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
>>>
>>>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
>>>
>>>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
>>>
>>>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
>>>
>>>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
>>>
>>>> Is this plausible?
>>>
>>>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>>>
>>>> road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>>>
>>>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
>>>
>>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
>>>
>>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
>>>
>>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
>>>
>>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
>>>
>>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
>>>
>>> wheel non-steerable axles.
>>
>>
>>
>> My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do.
>>
>> He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same.
>
> I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels
> try's to make them turn, esp when backing up.
>

you guys are something else. on fwd, the drive forces are directly in
the plane of the steering wheels. on rwd they're not, and the steering
wheels can have considerable side forces on them.

now, how about y'all discuss ways in which bricks can move? because if
they can't, you can drive tanks on them all day without any problems.


--
fact check required

On Saturday, August 3, 2013 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/03/2013 07:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a >
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> >>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it stood up
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> to the higher stress of racing cars.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel alignment.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> Is this plausible?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
>
> >>>
>
> >>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
>
> >>>
>
> >>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
>
> >>>
>
> >>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
>
> >>>
>
> >>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
>
> >>>
>
> >>> wheel non-steerable axles.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track like a RWD vehicle do.
>
> >>
>
> >> He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same.
>
> >
>
> > I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels
>
> > try's to make them turn, esp when backing up.
>
> >
>
>
>
> you guys are something else. on fwd, the drive forces are directly in
>
> the plane of the steering wheels. on rwd they're not, and the steering
>
> wheels can have considerable side forces on them.
>
>
>
> now, how about y'all discuss ways in which bricks can move? because if
>
> they can't, you can drive tanks on them all day without any problems.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> fact check required

There are brick/cobblestone streets in Europe that are over 100 years old, and front wheel drive cars galore. I wonder how well those streets are holding up?

On 8/2/2013 10:35 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/02/2013 04:20 AM, wrote:
>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20 years.
>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy workmanship?
>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and it
>> stood up
>> to the higher stress of racing cars.
>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling over,
>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested that
>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of paving are
>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front wheels,
>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel
>> alignment.
>> Is this plausible?
>
> not as a function of fwd. as a function of power steering, heavier
> cars, modern wider tires and drivers that turn the wheel on the spot
> rather than when the vehicle is rolling, possibly, but even then, all
> those are irrelevant if the bricks are set well and fit tight.
>
>
>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>> road damage,
>
> in europe, many big rigs have three trailer axles, not two. and they
> have lots of "pavé" or brick roads. yes, it's theoretically more of an
> issue, but when the brick is set right, it's simply not a problem.
>
>
>> and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.
>
> to set brick right, you need a proper substrate, properly compacted.
> look up roman road construction as an example - some of those things are
> still in use today.
>
>
Or maybe they own first generation Nissan Frontier 4WD pick-em-up trucks
- at least mine leaves black rubber streaks all over my broom finish
concrete driveway.

--
T0m $herm@n

On 8/3/2013 2:32 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
> wheel non-steerable axles.
>
Per AASHTO 1993, a fully loaded garbage truck is equal to about 9,500
sub 2-ton passenger vehicles for pavement damage.

--
T0m $herm@n

On 8/3/2013 11:24 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/03/2013 07:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, August 3, 2013 3:32:52 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My wife has a friend who has been doing brick paving for about 20
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>>> I asked him why you see so many brick driveways that have spread out
>>>>
>>>>> after a few years, was this due to the soil or just shoddy
>>>>> workmanship?
>>>>
>>>>> I mentioned that Indianapolis racetrack was once brick paved, and
>>>>> it stood up
>>>>
>>>>> to the higher stress of racing cars.
>>>>
>>>>> He replied that apart from something like a retaining wall falling
>>>>> over,
>>>>
>>>>> he blamed FWD cars making tight turns out of garages. He suggested
>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> I take a closer look, and should see the straight stretches of
>>>>> paving are
>>>>
>>>>> generally intact. He babbled on about the extra forces on front
>>>>> wheels,
>>>>
>>>>> and that some FWD cars have toe-out whereas RWD have toe-in wheel
>>>>> alignment.
>>>>
>>>>> Is this plausible?
>>>>
>>>>> I have heard that trucks with multiple non-steering axles cause most
>>>>
>>>>> road damage, and also that a 4WD without a centre diff is bad news,
>>>>
>>>>> but never anybody blaming FWD for paving damage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is logic to it. FWD cars make the front wheels do both the
>>>>
>>>> propelling and the steering. Trucks period cause most road damage. A
>>>>
>>>> typical 18 Wheeler causes as much damage as about 4000 cars/pickup do.
>>>>
>>>> It's not because of the non-steerable axles. The single axle, single
>>>>
>>>> wheels up front on the cab that do the steering on the semi are more
>>>>
>>>> damaging (relative to the weight being carried) then the other dual
>>>>
>>>> wheel non-steerable axles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My brother in law told me years ago that FWD vehicles don't track
>>> like a RWD vehicle do.
>>>
>>> He mentions if you pull into a parking space with a RWD vehicle with
>>> the steering wheel turned as you pull in it will track the same when
>>> you pull out, but he says a FWD vehicle won't track the same.
>>
>> I believe that's also true. The twisting force on the front wheels
>> try's to make them turn, esp when backing up.
>>
>
> you guys are something else. on fwd, the drive forces are directly in
> the plane of the steering wheels. on rwd they're not, and the steering
> wheels can have considerable side forces on them.
>
> now, how about y'all discuss ways in which bricks can move? because if
> they can't, you can drive tanks on them all day without any problems.
>
>
There are special brick paved yards for bulk items such as aggregate and
coal that hold up well to 30-ton wheel-loaders that steer by center
pivot, as well as bulldozers and track-loaders.

--
T0m $herm@n