Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to belined up?

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 00:37:06 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> I don't recall the specifics of what to do with each dot but my
> thoughts are that the dot(s) on the rim is nearly meaningless if the
> car has been driven more then 15,000 miles on normal roads.

Hi Ashton,

I appreciate your help and advice, and, well, I do understand what you're
saying (in that wheels change over time) ...

However, sheer logic says that, if the wheel match-mounting mark were really
therefore meaningless for replacement tires, then, (most) replacement tires would
not have any need for the *legal requirement* that the high spot & heavy
spot be marked (since the vast majority of replacement tires do *not* go on
brand new unused wheels).

So, that belies logic (although the government isn't known to be logical).

> if I was going to attempt to use the spots, I'd use the low spot dot and
> match it to the tires high spot dot.

Actually, for all but aluminum rims, the algorithm is explained in the
following articles I read before posting to this newsgroup:

1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...0ask%20doc.pdf

3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...ue2/Doctor.asp

4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires_10...atch_mounting/

5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/assets/d...ting_12803.pdf

6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"):
http://www.rma.org/tire_care_info/ti...0311_final.pdf

7. Tire Rack article on match mounting:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17

My problem is in what the significance of the dimple is in the stock BMW
BBS aluminum rims, since all these articles imply there is no match-mounting
point in the aluminum wheels (yet, contradictory words are in the articles
which state that the marks are mandatory by wheel manufacturers).

I'll call BBS to see what I can find out about that notch in my BBS wheels.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 00:37:06 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> Most of the shops I've been to would pull that big rim weight off
> first thing. Those little stick on weights they might leave on till
> they see how it spins in the balance machine.

I was thinking the same thing!

The stick of inside weights looks kind of permanent while the rim weight
is clearly huge and most would rip it off.

So I was mostly asking what they do with that stick of weights!

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 09:50:43 +0000, JoeBro wrote:

> Only a moron buys a bmw because it make him feel better to
> pay more for an overpriced POS.

I've had this bimmer for more than a decade, and, in very many
ways, Joe Bro is right. It's a POS when it comes to the plastic
cooling expansion tank and radiator neck blowing up; the DISA
valve being sucked into the intake manifold destroying your
exhaust valves; the stock VANOS seals being made out of nitrile
rubber instead of Viton; the $1000 Hella fiber-optic headlights
whose PBT plastic headlight adjusters crumble on every bimmer
over time due to forseeable heat inside the headlight; the cheapness
of BMW positioning the Bosch 5.7 ABS control module right next to
the exhaust manifold (to save on wires and tubes) so that it fries
on almost every 5-series, 3-series, and 7-series bimmer over time;
the cheap recycled rubber gasket around the windshields crumbling
to dust in just a few years; the stingy application of adhesive
on the door vapor barriers so that water invariably leaks into
every single bimmer's back seat over time; the idiotic seat motor
wires which cause seat twist eventually in all bimmers; the cheap
yet fancy window regulators whose clamps fall off their cables
in almost every bimmer over time; (and I could go on).

Yet, while the bimmer *is* a POS with respect to quality, it does
handle rather well.

So, like everything else, a bimmer is a trade off between superb
handling and safety, and POS component quality.

But, let's get back to the point please.

From the match-mounting articles, after reading the dozen references
on match mounting, I *think* this is the algorithm:
1. If you have steel wheels with match mounting marks, and red dots
on the tires, mount the match mounting mark to the red dot.
2. If you have steel wheels without match mounting marks, and red dots
on the tires, mount the valve stem to the red dot.
3. If you have steel wheels without match mounting dots, and no red dots
on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.
4. However, if you have aluminum wheels, and red dots on the tires,
then mount the valve stem to the red dot.
5. Likewise, if you have aluminum wheels, and no red dots on the tires,
then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.

All this works fine *if* there are no match mounting marks on the aluminum
wheels. But *mine* have (what appears to be) match mounting marks.

Unfortunately, NONE of the articles mentions what to do in the case of
aluminum rims with an existing match mounting mark.

I have a call in to BBS which hasn't been returned yet:
877.832.8209

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:22:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

> I'm not trying to be rude when I say this so please don't take it that
> way... but... sounds like you need a better shop.

This is true.

However, I've called Tire Rack, BBS, and even the rubber manufacturers
association, and, these "tire professionals" don't even know the answer
(at least not yet, offhand).

I sent them all the pictures, by email. So, we may get some progress,
but not in time for my appointment today with the Tire Rack "recommended
installers" who, supposedly, have met a professional standard for installation.

Unfortunately, it's my humble opinion that no tire installer installs tires
properly.

I'm not saying tires are falling off cars left and right, but, for the
aficionado, if you don't watch them and tell them what to do, they won't:

a) Mount the tire on the wheel properly
b) Torque the lug bolts properly
c) Pressurize the tires properly
etc.

And these are very basic mistakes that a mere consumer should *not* have
to worry about.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:20:56 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

> The dots are manufacturing QC only, to minimize bad batches, and
> nobody properly balancing tires pays any attention to the tire dots,
> because the rims may have a different balance point. And that could
> be at a point other than the valve stem.

I agree that nobody pays attention to the dots and match-mounting
marks - but I do not agree that this is the *proper* way to install
a tire (by ignoring those marks).

The dots are there to allow proper tire installation on the rim.

Both the rim and dots are required by law (according to the references
I previously quoted).

All I'm asking is what the proper way is to align those marks.

I do have a call to BBS, and they called me back - so I'm working
with them as we speak to determine what that match mounting mark
means on my BBS rims.

The guys I spoke to didn't know if BMW does anything different at
the factory, as they only handled the USA BBS wheels - so - they
forwarded my questions over to Germany.

Still - the answer won't arrive in time for *my* tires to be mounted
properly - and that's sad that you can't trust any tire professional
to mount a passenger tire properly.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

>>Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?
> There is no such requirement.

Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tire’s radial runout
high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheel’s
radial runout low point."

Tire Rack article on match mounting:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17

"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
"low point."

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:34:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> Those dots are a /starting point only/.

Hi Tegger,
That's the whole point!

The tire installer doesn't even START installing tires correctly
(unless we tell them how to mount our tires properly!).

The result, from their invariably bad starting point, is that more
weight is eventually added than was needed, and that's bad from
various points of view, especially when/if one of those weights
subsequently falls off.

A) The wheel is *really* out of balance by then
B) The environment doesn't need millions of pounds of lead that
never was needed in the first place.

So, thanks for stating that the whole point is to figure out the
correct *starting point*!

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:48:50 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

> "We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement
> tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire
> balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force
> variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the
> vehicle.

If this is true (and it very well may be), then why do my replacement
tires come with both the red and yellow dots, and why do the Yokohama
and Bridgestone articles and TSBs I provided say to mount the rim with
respect to those dots for replacement tires?

Do you see why this is confusing?
That's why I'm trying to find the answer.

Angel A. wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
>
>>> Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?
>> There is no such requirement.
>
> Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
> http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304
>
> "OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tire’s radial runout
> high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheel’s
> radial runout low point."
>
> Tire Rack article on match mounting:
> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17
>
> "Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
> tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
> "low point."
>


Notice the OE and OEM? This is required ONLY on tires and wheels sold
to auto manufacturers to be installed as the vehicles are made.

Look at tires that are not sold as an OEM tire and you usually won't
find marks. Especially on house brands and LT tires.

--
Steve W.

blue bmw wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:48:50 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
>
>> "We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement
>> tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire
>> balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force
>> variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the
>> vehicle.
>
> If this is true (and it very well may be), then why do my replacement
> tires come with both the red and yellow dots, and why do the Yokohama
> and Bridgestone articles and TSBs I provided say to mount the rim with
> respect to those dots for replacement tires?
>
> Do you see why this is confusing?
> That's why I'm trying to find the answer.
>

The reason is that any company that sells to an auto manufacturer has to
mark the tires sold to them as OEM fitment.
Say Bridgestone makes 100,000 pieces of a certain tire. The auto maker
says "Hey we want 64,000 of those delivered by Friday" By marking ALL
the tires they can just grab that amount and ship them. The rest go to
wholesale/retail outlets. Those have the marks simply because of
economics. It is like any other commodity item, if you sell to a
customer that requires a certain coating or material it is easier to
make the entire run the same way and sell the "leftovers" elsewhere.

Also be aware that unless the tire you are fitting is the EXACT same
tire (make, model, molding, rubber compound, size), the new tire is
going to perform differently. You can take 5 different tires of the same
size from 5 different brands or even model tire from the same brand and
they will measure differently.

Did you know that in reality there is no such thing as a 15/16/17 INCH
tire? That in reality they are all produced using metric measurements
but still use the inch designation for easier identification?


--
Steve W.