Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to belined up?

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:15:52 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
> wrote:

>I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted
>- and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up:
>http://i43.tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg
>
>Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers
>are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" respectively.
>http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17
>http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304
>
>On the back of my stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white,
>which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not
>at the valve stem):
>http://i42.tinypic.com/24w54cj.jpg
>
>Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot!
>RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire
>YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the tire
>
>So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the ti
>1. Wheel valve stem
>2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
>3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
>4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)
>
>OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?
>
>Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
>Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
>http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg

I don't recall the specifics of what to do with each dot but my
thoughts are that the dot(s) on the rim is nearly meaningless if the
car has been driven more then 15,000 miles on normal roads. Esp the
"low spot" dot. It may have been the low spot before the rim was
banged around for 15K + miles but whether it's the low spot anymore
seems like a crapshoot. If the rims have any road rash, ditto for the
"light spot". Of the two, if I was going to attempt to use the spots,
I'd use the low spot dot and match it to the tires high spot dot. But
instead of telling the shop to "match these two different colored
dots" I would get a big yellow grease pencil and just draw a big
yellow line on the inside sidewall of the tire and a big yellow line
on the inside of the rim where those dots are and ask that they line
up those lines when they mount the tire. Most of the shops I've been
to would pull that big rim weight off first thing. Those little stick
on weights they might leave on till they see how it spins in the
balance machine. You have the option of just scraping them off
yourself of asking them to before the start balancing it. That's kind
of a hard call not knowing if those weights were there mostly because
the previous set of tires needed them or if they are there because the
rim needed them. I tend to think that BMW would expect the naked rims
to be pretty well balanced when new so I'd be inclined to scrape them
all off myself before taking them to the shop just so they won't be
tempted to leave em one and balance them out with even more weight.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 06:52:30 +0000 (UTC), "Angel A."
> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:08:47 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> Those dots are unscientific and meaningless.
>
>Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?

There is no such requirement.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 06:26:38 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:08:47 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> Get your tires balanced by a shop that does road force balancing.
>
>I don't disagree that road force balancing is best, but, how many
>shops have you seen who spin the rim against a separate wheel before
>mounting the tire on the rim?

With road force balancing the procedure is to turn the tire on the rim
it's mounted on, to where the least weight has to be used to strike
the balance. Whether the guy knows how to do it properly, or wants to
do it properly instead of just using more weights is unknown.
You just can't control everything, so get used to it.
The dots are manufacturing QC only, to minimize bad batches, and
nobody properly balancing tires pays any attention to the tire dots,
because the rims may have a different balance point. And that could
be at a point other than the valve stem.
It's a crap shoot. So just pick a good balancing shop. If you feel
bad vibes, take it back and have them redo it.
Usually it's good the first time, but I've had to take my vehicles
back a couple times. They rebalanced the problem wheels at no extra
cost.

blue bmw > wrote in :

> Isn't that what this group is all about?
>

No, it's about home repairs. Try alt.anal.bmwOwners instead. They will
have a good answer for you.

blue bmw wrote:
> I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted
> - and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up:
> http://i43.tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg
>
> Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers
> are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" respectively.
> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17
> http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

Only the FACTORY OEM tires and rims are required to be marked. Saves
money at the factory by using less weight to balance the factory
installed tires.

Read to the end and you find
"We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement
tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire
balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force
variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the
vehicle. Using these machines, a colored dot might be positioned
anywhere on the wheel relative to each wheel's runout measurement. In
the end, the markers have little, if any, relevance when replacement
tires are installed."


>
> On the back of my stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white,
> which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not
> at the valve stem):
> http://i42.tinypic.com/24w54cj.jpg
>
> Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot!
> RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire
> YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the tire
>
> So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the ti
> 1. Wheel valve stem
> 2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
> 3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
> 4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)
>
> OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?
>
> Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
> Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
> http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg
>

Basically the dot's mean absolutely nothing if you're mounting the tire
on a used rim. One good pothole or curb strike can change the low spot
on the rim.

For you're install you will want to strip the weights, clean off the
brake dust, clean the hub interface and mount and balance them.


--
Steve W.

blue bmw > wrote in :

> Only a moron goes to the dealer, and even then, only because
> it makes that moron feel better to pay more.

Only a moron buys a bmw because it make him feel better to pay more for an
overpriced POS. BMWs isn.t what they used to be. If you wanted something
decent you should have gotten at least an MB C250.

On 07/14/2013 11:33 PM, blue bmw wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:
>
>> If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!
>
> The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
> they won't do it.
>
> Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
> and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
> spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
> (BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
> spec out a rotation), etc.
>
> Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
> may not know how.
>
> Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
> and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
> seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
> valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.
>
> So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
> tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
> 150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
> 50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).
>
> They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.
>
> Isn't that what this group is all about?
>

I'm not trying to be rude when I say this so please don't take it that
way... but... sounds like you need a better shop.

Where are you located? I can recommend a couple shops local to me that
don't suck.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 07/15/2013 05:50 AM, JoeBro wrote:
> blue bmw > wrote in :
>
>> Only a moron goes to the dealer, and even then, only because
>> it makes that moron feel better to pay more.
>
> Only a moron buys a bmw because it make him feel better to pay more for an
> overpriced POS. BMWs isn.t what they used to be. If you wanted something
> decent you should have gotten at least an MB C250.
>

Eh? Two completely different cars. BMW (at least up until a couple
years ago) was for people who liked to drive, a MB was for people who
just want a more "upscale" car. (in quotes because they're upscale in
the US, but not necessarily everywhere else in the world.)

Unfortunately from what I hear the new 3 series is not as engaging to
drive as the old one, but I haven't driven one myself yet...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

blue bmw > wrote in
news

>
> So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the
> ti 1. Wheel valve stem
> 2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
> 3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
> 4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)
>
> OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?
>
> Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
> Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
> http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg
>


Those dots are a /starting point only/. The theory is that by, for
instance, matching the low spot on the rim with the high spot on the tire
it will be easier to mount the tire so as to spin smoothly. This is
necessary before starting the balancing procedure.

In practice, an aftermarket tire installer will often not have the rim's
dots available, and will mount the tire as his personal preference
dictates. He will spin the bare wheel, making sure it's actually in-spec
for that automaker. He will find the low spot(s) on the rim by eye. He may
try matching the high spot on the tire with the low spot he found on the
rim. He may try the light spot on the tire opposite the valve stem.

Either way, the idea is to get the tire to spin smoothly before balancing.
"Smoothly" means that, as the tire is spun, the tread does not hop up and
down or squirm from side to side. As a proxy for that, many tire installers
will observe the rubber ridges on the tire that sit immediately outboard of
the rims. If this ridge is perfectly even all the way around relative to
the rim, he will consider the tire to be mounted properly. To me, having
that ridge sit evenly should be backed up by actually studying the tread as
the tire spins. This means lifting the machine's guard and spinning the
tire slowly while watching the tread. If the tread hops or squirms, then
there will be vibration or harshness on the road even if the balance
appears to be perfect.

If the tire won't spin smoothly no matter what, then the installer will
turn the tire 180 degrees and try again. And then move it again.

THIS IS ASSUMING THE TIRE INSTALLER KNOWS TO DO THIS! A lot of cheapo shops
will simply throw the tire on the rim, balance, and be done with it. Little
or no checking or matching of any kind.

Proper mounting requires proper tire lubricant. Some aftermarket shops will
use inferior substitutes, such as soap-and-water. These will impart an
unacceptable level of friction between tire and rim, and prevent the tire
from popping in place all the way. This will result in a tread that hops
and squirms.

Sometimes drive-tires will rotate on the rim before all the tire lubricant
has a chance to squeeze out. To detect this, a chalk or grease-pencil mark
should be placed on the tire and rim. If the client comes back complaining
of vibration, the installer can check those marks and see if they have come
out of alignment. If they have, then the client has ignored the admonition
to accelerate and brake gently for a few days.

Many tires returned to tire makers as "defective" are actually fine; they
were damaged by poor mounting techique. Tire makers can tell this by the
marks the rim leaves on the bead.

A Hunter road-force machine cannot compensate for poor mounting, all it can
do is alert the installer that somesthing's wrong. The Hunter machine first
requires proper mounting in order to work as intended.

Costco goes through a large vvolume of tires. Their employees receive
training directly from the tire makers in the proper mounting procedure.
You are more likely to receive correctly-mounted and -balanced tires from
Costco than from them than from most tire shops.

And yes, all dirt and old weights should be cleaned off the wheel before
new tires are added.

--
Tegger

On 07/15/2013 08:22 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 07/14/2013 11:33 PM, blue bmw wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>> If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!
>>
>> The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
>> they won't do it.
>>
>> Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
>> and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
>> spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
>> (BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
>> spec out a rotation), etc.
>>
>> Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
>> may not know how.
>>
>> Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
>> and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
>> seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
>> valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.
>>
>> So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly
>> installing
>> tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds
>> of weight,
>> 150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back
>> seat, and
>> 50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air
>> pressure).
>>
>> They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.
>>
>> Isn't that what this group is all about?
>>
>
> I'm not trying to be rude when I say this so please don't take it that
> way... but... sounds like you need a better shop.
>
> Where are you located? I can recommend a couple shops local to me that
> don't suck.
>
> nate
>

Forgot to add, you're completely neglecting that your tire shop also
should have soft pads for their rim clamps, or use a tire machine that
doesn't clamp the rim at all (because I ASSume that if you have a BMW
that it has alloy wheels)

Nothing makes me stabbier than seeing those dimples in the rim from the
rim clamps because the tire guy was too lazy to use the soft pads... but
most used sets of alloys that I've bought have them... with corrosion
spreading around the marks usually meaning they need to be refinished to
look 100%

Again I have a short list of shops local to me that I will trust to
mount/balance tires


nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel