Legitimate need for battery charging or ripoff?

A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
and charging system, tells them the battery just needs to be taken
somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
driven daily.

Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.

Is "the battery needs charging" ever likely valid advice for a daily
driver? In decades of driving I've never once, ever had a battery that
needed to be "charged". They've either been good or they were shot. I
try to stay on top of distilled water in the battery, getting 8 years
or so out of a battery not unheard of for me. I'll have a battery sit
for months in a car never being fired up, cranks up just fine.

Or is it more likely this company is just trying to dodge doing a
warranty replacement? This same company's techs are in the habit of
telling customers to "run the car for half an hour it'll be fine", not
in a left the lights on scenario, the battery was just dead after
sitting overnight or whatever. Typically, no it's not fine after
running it. Obviously the battery came up dead for a reason.

Opinions?

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:41:40 -0800 (PST), Lee Galitee
> wrote:

>A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
>a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
>battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
>and charging system, tells them the battery just needs to be taken
>somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
>driven daily.
>
>Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
>him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.
>
>Is "the battery needs charging" ever likely valid advice for a daily
>driver? In decades of driving I've never once, ever had a battery that
>needed to be "charged". They've either been good or they were shot. I
>try to stay on top of distilled water in the battery, getting 8 years
>or so out of a battery not unheard of for me. I'll have a battery sit
>for months in a car never being fired up, cranks up just fine.
>
>Or is it more likely this company is just trying to dodge doing a
>warranty replacement? This same company's techs are in the habit of
>telling customers to "run the car for half an hour it'll be fine", not
>in a left the lights on scenario, the battery was just dead after
>sitting overnight or whatever. Typically, no it's not fine after
>running it. Obviously the battery came up dead for a reason.
>
>Opinions?


Lead-acid batteries self discharge over time. An old, worn out battery
discharges faster. so it is possible for a vehicle with a tired
battery to be unable to start after a day or so. Or even over night
:-(

You could check with a multi-meter. A fully charged battery will
measure 12.7 volts D.C. Check the voltage after you shut down for the
day. First thing next morning check again and see what the difference
is.
You can also check the charging rate hook up the multi-meter to the
battery and read the voltage with the engine off. Start the engine and
run the engine at about 1500 - 2000 RPM and watch the meter. The
voltage should rise to something over 13 volts after a while.

Cheers,

John B.

Lee Galitee > wrote:
>A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
>a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
>battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
>and charging system, tells them the battery just needs to be taken
>somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
>driven daily.
>
>Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
>him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.

This sounds like a normal case of Magic Test Equipment.

Technician who doesn't really understand the underlying technology of
the system buys Magic Test Equipment which does some internal calculation
and produces a derived value. Then the technician believes implicitly
what the test equipment says, even when it is clearly incorrect or not
relevant. Because it is Magic.

The more parameters that go into the derived value, the more parameters
can be wrong or measured incorrectly....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Lee Galitee wrote:
> A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
> a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
> battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
> and charging system, tells them the battery just needs to be taken
> somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
> driven daily.

In a daily driver there are only four reasons for a dead battery.

A bad battery - Internal damage or sulfation due to age/shock/damage
Bad alternator - Internal problem (diodes, stator rings) regulator
Bad wiring - main cables failing or corroded so a poor connection
excessive draw - lights/stereo left on or a bad module causing high drain.



>
> Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
> him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.

Sounds MUCH more likely.

>
> Is "the battery needs charging" ever likely valid advice for a daily
> driver? In decades of driving I've never once, ever had a battery that
> needed to be "charged". They've either been good or they were shot. I
> try to stay on top of distilled water in the battery, getting 8 years
> or so out of a battery not unheard of for me. I'll have a battery sit
> for months in a car never being fired up, cranks up just fine.

Not uncommon. Newer vehicles with lots of electronics will draw them
down if left connected and not charged. 3-4 weeks is about normal in
that case.

>
> Or is it more likely this company is just trying to dodge doing a
> warranty replacement? This same company's techs are in the habit of
> telling customers to "run the car for half an hour it'll be fine", not
> in a left the lights on scenario, the battery was just dead after
> sitting overnight or whatever. Typically, no it's not fine after
> running it. Obviously the battery came up dead for a reason.
>
> Opinions?


--
Steve W.

On Nov 21, 1:41*am, Lee Galitee > wrote:
> A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
> a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
> battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
> and charging system, *tells them the battery just needs to be taken
> somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
> driven daily.
>
> Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
> him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.
>
> Is "the battery needs charging" ever likely valid advice for a daily
> driver? In decades of driving I've never once, ever had a battery that
> needed to be "charged". They've either been good or they were shot. I
> try to stay on top of distilled water in the battery, getting 8 years
> or so out of a battery not unheard of for me. I'll have a battery sit
> for months in a car never being fired up, cranks up just fine.
>
> Or is it more likely this company is just trying to dodge doing a
> warranty replacement? This same company's techs are in the habit of
> telling customers to "run the car for half an hour it'll be fine", not
> in a left the lights on scenario, the battery was just dead after
> sitting overnight or whatever. Typically, no it's not fine after
> running it. Obviously the battery came up dead for a reason.
>
> Opinions?

For them to test to see if the battery is defective they'll need to
attempt to charge your battery for X number of hours and see if it'll
hold a load test.. If it passes you may have another issue causing
the battery drain.

If your battery ran dead and you are just letting your alternator
recharge the battery, your battery will never be fully charged.. You
need to put it on a slow charge to maximize your batteries charge..
Only letting the car charge it is like giving it a quick charge.

On 11/20/2010 10:41 PM, Lee Galitee wrote:
> A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
> a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
> battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
> and charging system, tells them the battery just needs to be taken
> somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
> driven daily.
>
> Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
> him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.
>
> Is "the battery needs charging" ever likely valid advice for a daily
> driver? In decades of driving I've never once, ever had a battery that
> needed to be "charged". They've either been good or they were shot. I
> try to stay on top of distilled water in the battery, getting 8 years
> or so out of a battery not unheard of for me. I'll have a battery sit
> for months in a car never being fired up, cranks up just fine.
>
> Or is it more likely this company is just trying to dodge doing a
> warranty replacement? This same company's techs are in the habit of
> telling customers to "run the car for half an hour it'll be fine", not
> in a left the lights on scenario, the battery was just dead after
> sitting overnight or whatever. Typically, no it's not fine after
> running it. Obviously the battery came up dead for a reason.
>
> Opinions?

well, the battery might be dead for a reason - you need to check and see
there's no issues like a trunk light not switching off or some such.

for the battery though, once a starting battery has been allowed to
discharge, it's pretty much shot. unless you want to sit there with the
battery on a de-sulfating charger for weeks to try and revive it, and
with no guarantee of success, you just need to get a new one. i'd say
this is well known to the battery guy and this "charge" waffle is just
an attempt to wriggle out of a warranty. pursue accordingly.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"m6onz5a" > wrote in message news:29dd43dd-If your
battery ran dead and you are just letting your alternator
recharge the battery, your battery will never be fully charged.. You
need to put it on a slow charge to maximize your batteries charge..
Only letting the car charge it is like giving it a quick charge.
*******

Does everybody buy into this?

On Nov 21, 1:41*am, Lee Galitee > wrote:
> A roadside assistance company sells batteries with a warranty. Car has
> a no start condition, customer calls for warranty replacement on
> battery. The battery guy comes out, puts his test unit on the battery
> and charging system, *tells them the battery just needs to be taken
> somewhere to be charged at X amps for X hours. This is a car that's
> driven daily.
>
> Customer takes vehicle to legitimate shop, SAE cert'd mechs, they tell
> him the charging system is fine, the battery is shot.
>
> Is "the battery needs charging" ever likely valid advice for a daily
> driver? In decades of driving I've never once, ever had a battery that
> needed to be "charged". They've either been good or they were shot. I
> try to stay on top of distilled water in the battery, getting 8 years
> or so out of a battery not unheard of for me. I'll have a battery sit
> for months in a car never being fired up, cranks up just fine.
>
> Or is it more likely this company is just trying to dodge doing a
> warranty replacement? This same company's techs are in the habit of
> telling customers to "run the car for half an hour it'll be fine", not
> in a left the lights on scenario, the battery was just dead after
> sitting overnight or whatever. Typically, no it's not fine after
> running it. Obviously the battery came up dead for a reason.
>
> Opinions?

Sure a battery can run down even if it's driven every day. If you
don't spin the alternator enough replace the electricity used in
starting the battery will inevitably over time go dead. Batteries can
also be marginal, but hold enough of a charge to get your car started
in warm weather. When it turns cold - presto - discharged battery, or
one that needs to be recharged.

I would never buy a battery from a roadside assistance company. Just
get it jumped to start and have the battery tested and replaced by a
real mechanic.

You can run the engine all night long on a marginal battery and you
might have enough stored energy to start the engine if it catches
right away.

On Nov 22, 2:22*pm, "hls" > wrote:
> "m6onz5a" > wrote in message news:29dd43dd-If your
>
> battery ran dead and you are just letting your alternator
> recharge the battery, your battery will never be fully charged.. You
> need to put it on a slow charge to maximize your batteries charge..
> Only letting the car charge it is like giving it a quick charge.
> *******
>
> Does everybody buy into this?

buy into what???? Slow charging batteries has always been better than
a quick charge.. Most cars alternators run 70-110amps.. Battery
chargers on a slow charge are only 2-5 amps. Some a bit higher for a
faster charge, but the lower the amps the longer it takes to charge
and the better your battery will be.

"John S." > wrote in message news:e39b80ee-b15c-4544-
You can run the engine all night long on a marginal battery and you
might have enough stored energy to start the engine if it catches
right away.

If the battery is in good shape and the charging system is working as it
should, it can adequately recharge a battery, although it will take some
time... and maybe that is not always a bad thing. High rate chargers
are not necessarily the best way to recharge a better.