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Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 15th 17, 11:17 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 383
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:46:23 -0000 (UTC), Arthur
Wood > wrote:

>trader_4 wrote:
>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2XYORX

>> That's what I was telling him about in the other thread here, that I've
>> heard people have used one of those disco smoke gizmos. Seems you
>> should be able to rig up something to pipe it in. Plus, with a boom box
>> and some songs, you can have a business at parties and weddings as a DJ.

>
>I thank you for coming to my aid, and I apologize for not having "believed"
>in your previous suggestion. (See below why.)
>
>For some reason, I had thought that the "party foggers" had a big opening
>at low pressure (like the size you can put your hand through) but this one
>in the Amazon picture seems to have a one-inch opening with a tiny 1/4-inch
>nozzle.
>
>Is that right?
>
>If so, I don't see why it's not perfect for the task - if it generates the
>smoke at enough of a pressure to get us a couple of psi for a long period
>of time. It has to be in the goldilocks range of a few psi (maybe 2 to 4
>psi?).
>
>The output is 2000 CFM, which seems like a lot.
>Is there a way to *convert* that to PSI?


Why are you concerned with PSI. AIUI, you only need enough pressure to
get the smoke out of the machine, or out of the hose**. Plainly it has
that much pressure, or the machine wouldn't function for its original
purpose.

After that the smoke just has to float around near the vacuum leak and
the vacuum will suck it into the engine.

If anything too much pressure would make the smoke zoom by the leak
without stopping. LOL Well, not unless it was r eally fast, you'd
still probably see some of it get waylaid and sucked into the engine

**Or are you saying it needs enough pressure to get through the hose?
The pictures don't show it being used with a hose, but if it doesn't
have enough pressure to get it through the hose, then skip the hose and
just blow from the machine to the engine. You can put the machine on a
chair or stepladder if need be. You can hold it closer to the engine
if need be.

The pictures show the smoke going out 3 feet or more. That seems like
enough pressure to me, and a bigger problem is likely that there is too
much smoke. Is that why you want to use a hose? If there's too much,
cut a hole in a big piece of paper near the engine so that only so much
can get through the hole. It's not like you have to do this for 50,000
miles, only long enough to find the vacuum leak.

>The "wired control" might even be useful for one-man operation while
>debugging a vaccum leak on an engine.
>
>The machine holds 0.5 liters (1/8 gallon) where a gallon of the fog juice
>(propylene glycol perhaps?) is $20 which means the machine, over time, is
>cheaper than the fluid used to make the smoke!
><https://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Great-Party-Fog-Machines/dp/B005UQPPK4/ref=pd_sim_267_1/135-2052768-3676406>
>
>So I do agree, for forty something bucks, it's about the same cost as what
>it cost me to make that tin-can smoke machine that didn't work.
>https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke1.jpg.html
>
>Any idea how to calculate the PSI out from the 2000CFM spec?


No.


Typically, fog is created by vaporizing proprietary water and
glycol-based or glycerin-based fluids or through the atomization of
mineral oil. This fluid (often referred to colloquially as fog juice)
vaporizes or atomizes inside the fog machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_machine
Ads
  #12  
Old December 16th 17, 01:38 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:46:23 -0000 (UTC), Arthur Wood
> wrote:

>trader_4 wrote:
>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2XYORX

>> That's what I was telling him about in the other thread here, that I've
>> heard people have used one of those disco smoke gizmos. Seems you
>> should be able to rig up something to pipe it in. Plus, with a boom box
>> and some songs, you can have a business at parties and weddings as a DJ.

>
>I thank you for coming to my aid, and I apologize for not having "believed"
>in your previous suggestion. (See below why.)
>
>For some reason, I had thought that the "party foggers" had a big opening
>at low pressure (like the size you can put your hand through) but this one
>in the Amazon picture seems to have a one-inch opening with a tiny 1/4-inch
>nozzle.
>
>Is that right?
>
>If so, I don't see why it's not perfect for the task - if it generates the
>smoke at enough of a pressure to get us a couple of psi for a long period
>of time. It has to be in the goldilocks range of a few psi (maybe 2 to 4
>psi?).
>
>The output is 2000 CFM, which seems like a lot.
>Is there a way to *convert* that to PSI?
>
>The "wired control" might even be useful for one-man operation while
>debugging a vaccum leak on an engine.
>
>The machine holds 0.5 liters (1/8 gallon) where a gallon of the fog juice
>(propylene glycol perhaps?) is $20 which means the machine, over time, is
>cheaper than the fluid used to make the smoke!
><https://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Great-Party-Fog-Machines/dp/B005UQPPK4/ref=pd_sim_267_1/135-2052768-3676406>
>
>So I do agree, for forty something bucks, it's about the same cost as what
>it cost me to make that tin-can smoke machine that didn't work.
>https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke1.jpg.html
>
>Any idea how to calculate the PSI out from the 2000CFM spec?



Not really possible to be really accurate. You could determine how
much poressure is required by calculating the velocity of the fog
escaping from the nozzle size and roughly approxemate the pressure
utilized to force that flow, but that won't tell you the pressure
capability of the system. (it might put out 2000 cfm of smoke at
1/2PSI, and be capable of pumping 1000cfm at 2.5psi, for example.
  #13  
Old December 16th 17, 01:48 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:22:41 -0500, rickman > wrote:

>Arthur Woodwrote on 12/15/2017 12:46 PM:
>> trader_4 wrote:
>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2XYORX
>>> That's what I was telling him about in the other thread here, that I've
>>> heard people have used one of those disco smoke gizmos. See Hpressure but it is s you
>>> should be able to rig up something to pipe it in. Plus, with a boom box
>>> and some songs, you can have a business at parties and weddings as a DJ.

>>
>> I thank you for coming to my aid, and I apologize for not having "believed"
>> in your previous suggestion. (See below why.)
>>



They don't use a fan. They use a liquid pump to squirt the fluid
through the heater, which vapourizes , producing steam pressure. No
fan. I have onem and I've had it apart. The poressure is reasonable,
but I'd say less than 5 psi. Commercial smokemachiners run somewhere
around 1 - 2 PSI maximum.

The only olproblem I see is getting the HOT smoke (really more like
steam) into the fuel system you are testing. It will melt a plastic
hose attached to the output - so you need an adapter that acts as a
cooler as well - which WILL reduce the pressure somewhat.


>> If so, I don't see why it's not perfect for the task - if it generates the
>> smoke at enough of a pressure to get us a couple of psi for a long period
>> of time. It has to be in the goldilocks range of a few psi (maybe 2 to 4
>> psi?).

>
>How did you come up with that number?
>
>
>> The output is 2000 CFM, which seems like a lot.
>> Is there a way to *convert* that to PSI?

>
>Not really. Most likely they are using a fan designed to move air against
>very little pressure, like the "muffin" fans in a PC. They will move a
>decent volume of air at very low pressure, but the air flow falls off very
>quickly as the pressure increases. The only way to know for sure is to get
>the spec sheet of the fan.
>
>Here is a spec sheet of a typical DC cooling fan.

\


>
>http://www.nmbtc.com/content/pdfs/08015JE.pdf
>
>Notice the flow goes to zero at pressures around 0.1 inches of H2O. Your 2
>psi would be 55 inches of H2O.
>
>Maybe they are using a different type of fan, but I don't think y


ou are
>going to get 2 psi from one of these machines. Maybe you could rig your
>compressor to it to boost the pressure.
>
>
>> The "wired control" might even be useful for one-man operation while
>> debugging a vaccum leak on an engine.
>>
>> The machine holds 0.5 liters (1/8 gallon) where a gallon of the fog juice
>> (propylene glycol perhaps?) is $20 which means the machine, over time, is
>> cheaper than the fluid used to make the smoke!
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Great-Party-Fog-Machines/dp/B005UQPPK4/ref=pd_sim_267_1/135-2052768-3676406>
>>
>> So I do agree, for forty something bucks, it's about the same cost as what
>> it cost me to make that tin-can smoke machine that didn't work.
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke1.jpg.html

>
>The same cost for something that also isn't likely to work without
>modification.
>
>> Any idea how to calculate the PSI out from the 2000CFM spec?

>
>See above...

  #14  
Old December 16th 17, 01:51 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:17:05 -0500, micky >
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:46:23 -0000 (UTC), Arthur
>Wood > wrote:
>
>>trader_4 wrote:
>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2XYORX
>>> That's what I was telling him about in the other thread here, that I've
>>> heard people have used one of those disco smoke gizmos. Seems you
>>> should be able to rig up something to pipe it in. Plus, with a boom box
>>> and some songs, you can have a business at parties and weddings as a DJ.

>>
>>I thank you for coming to my aid, and I apologize for not having "believed"
>>in your previous suggestion. (See below why.)
>>
>>For some reason, I had thought that the "party foggers" had a big opening
>>at low pressure (like the size you can put your hand through) but this one
>>in the Amazon picture seems to have a one-inch opening with a tiny 1/4-inch
>>nozzle.
>>
>>Is that right?
>>
>>If so, I don't see why it's not perfect for the task - if it generates the
>>smoke at enough of a pressure to get us a couple of psi for a long period
>>of time. It has to be in the goldilocks range of a few psi (maybe 2 to 4
>>psi?).
>>
>>The output is 2000 CFM, which seems like a lot.
>>Is there a way to *convert* that to PSI?

>
>Why are you concerned with PSI. AIUI, you only need enough pressure to
>get the smoke out of the machine, or out of the hose**. Plainly it has
>that much pressure, or the machine wouldn't function for its original
>purpose.
>
>After that the smoke just has to float around near the vacuum leak and
>the vacuum will suck it into the engine.


Again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, Micky. The smoke
is pumped INTO the system, with the engine not running - under a low
pressure to force it OUT through the leak.
>
>If anything too much pressure would make the smoke zoom by the leak
>without stopping. LOL Well, not unless it was r eally fast, you'd
>still probably see some of it get waylaid and sucked into the engine


Gettin in deeper, Micky
>
>**Or are you saying it needs enough pressure to get through the hose?
> The pictures don't show it being used with a hose, but if it doesn't
>have enough pressure to get it through the hose, then skip the hose and
>just blow from the machine to the engine. You can put the machine on a
>chair or stepladder if need be. You can hold it closer to the engine
>if need be.
>
>The pictures show the smoke going out 3 feet or more. That seems like
>enough pressure to me, and a bigger problem is likely that there is too
>much smoke. Is that why you want to use a hose? If there's too much,
>cut a hole in a big piece of paper near the engine so that only so much
>can get through the hole. It's not like you have to do this for 50,000
>miles, only long enough to find the vacuum leak.
>
>>The "wired control" might even be useful for one-man operation while
>>debugging a vaccum leak on an engine.
>>
>>The machine holds 0.5 liters (1/8 gallon) where a gallon of the fog juice
>>(propylene glycol perhaps?) is $20 which means the machine, over time, is
>>cheaper than the fluid used to make the smoke!
>><https://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Great-Party-Fog-Machines/dp/B005UQPPK4/ref=pd_sim_267_1/135-2052768-3676406>
>>
>>So I do agree, for forty something bucks, it's about the same cost as what
>>it cost me to make that tin-can smoke machine that didn't work.
>>https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke1.jpg.html
>>
>>Any idea how to calculate the PSI out from the 2000CFM spec?

>
>No.
>
>
>Typically, fog is created by vaporizing proprietary water and
>glycol-based or glycerin-based fluids or through the atomization of
>mineral oil. This fluid (often referred to colloquially as fog juice)
>vaporizes or atomizes inside the fog machine.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_machine

  #15  
Old December 16th 17, 01:56 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:52:41 -0500, Tekkie® >
wrote:

>Arthur Wood posted for all of us...
>
>
>>
>> All we need to find vacuum leaks in a complex engine is a smoke machine
>> that works. All it needs to do is...
>> a. Emit lots of smoke that won't clog up an engine when it condenses, and,
>> b. Constantly push that smoke at a couple of psi for about a half hour.
>>
>> We made a smoke machine to work on a friend's kid's old bimmer but the
>> smoke machine we made failed to generate enough smoke. And now I need a
>> smoke machine.
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke2.jpg.html
>>
>> It seems so simple, and yes, we've seen the "cigar in a can" and "burning
>> rags in a can" videos but they all have problems of not generating enough
>> smoke for a long enough period of time.
>>
>> Our machine generates smoke for a long time but not enough smoke!
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke7.jpg.html
>>
>> It's 3 holes in a new paint can with glycerin in a soup can inside.
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke3.jpg.html
>>
>> The top has a 12VDC diesel glow plug which gets red hot. It is stuck into
>> the glycerin in a soup can. That generates the smoke.
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke5.jpg.html
>>
>> We push that smoke out regulated at about 3 psi with an air gun mounted on
>> the side.
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke8.jpg.html
>>
>> There's just not enough smoke.
>> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke9.jpg.html
>>
>> Do you know what fluid would generate more non-sticky smoke?
>> Or do you know of a hundred dollar smoke machine that can do the two thing?
>> a. Emit lots of smoke that won't clog up an engine when it condenses, and,
>> b. Constantly push that smoke at a couple of psi for about a half hour.

>
>From reading replies you don't any research on anything before posting, then
>you argue and ask more questions. Are you a previous poster under another
>name?

You thinking the same guy that argued about tire mounting and
ballancing???

My thought too. Mabee his twin brother from a different mother???
  #16  
Old December 16th 17, 04:08 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Scott Dorsey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,914
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

Clare Snyder > wrote:
>Again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, Micky. The smoke
>is pumped INTO the system, with the engine not running - under a low
>pressure to force it OUT through the leak.


I have seen people do it manually. They take a big puff on the cigar
and blow into a piece of vacuum hose. It works okay if you have good
enough side-lighting that you can see where the smoke is coming out.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #17  
Old December 16th 17, 06:06 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Steve W.[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,161
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home madesmoke machine?

Arthur Wood wrote:
> All we need to find vacuum leaks in a complex engine is a smoke machine
> that works. All it needs to do is...
> a. Emit lots of smoke that won't clog up an engine when it condenses, and,
> b. Constantly push that smoke at a couple of psi for about a half hour.
>
> We made a smoke machine to work on a friend's kid's old bimmer but the
> smoke machine we made failed to generate enough smoke. And now I need a
> smoke machine.
> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke2.jpg.html
>
> It seems so simple, and yes, we've seen the "cigar in a can" and "burning
> rags in a can" videos but they all have problems of not generating enough
> smoke for a long enough period of time.
>
> Our machine generates smoke for a long time but not enough smoke!
> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke7.jpg.html
>
> It's 3 holes in a new paint can with glycerin in a soup can inside.
> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke3.jpg.html
>
> The top has a 12VDC diesel glow plug which gets red hot. It is stuck into
> the glycerin in a soup can. That generates the smoke.
> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke5.jpg.html
>
> We push that smoke out regulated at about 3 psi with an air gun mounted on
> the side.
> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke8.jpg.html
>
> There's just not enough smoke.
> https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/368...moke9.jpg.html
>
> Do you know what fluid would generate more non-sticky smoke?
> Or do you know of a hundred dollar smoke machine that can do the two thing?
> a. Emit lots of smoke that won't clog up an engine when it condenses, and,
> b. Constantly push that smoke at a couple of psi for about a half hour.



First lose the glow plug, more smoke = more surface area for the oil to
cook on.
I built a paint can unit as a demo, generates a LOT of smoke, more than
my Snap-On unit does.

Used nichrome wire wrapped around fiberglass tiki wicks. Wound a total
of 4 coils. Two are in series and then those are in parallel with the
other 2, gives you a LOT of surface area and uses under 12 amps of 12
volt current.

Next a common propane regulator. You do not want high PSI in the system,
REAL easy to damage parts that cannot handle pressure. The propane
regulator can take 90-200 psi and drop it to under 1/2 psi (11-12 inches
of water column, OEM smoke machine standard is no higher than 13 in/wc)

Made an air bar that puts the air out in a nice even ring.

Made a low pressure check valve on the output, that way you can shut
down the machine with it attached and it won't pull fuel vapor back in.

And a flow meter and adjustable flow so you can tell what is actually
going on.

Basically a home built version of a red line unit.

--
Steve W.
  #18  
Old December 16th 17, 09:59 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...


>
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:52:41 -0500, Tekkie® >
> wrote:
> You thinking the same guy that argued about tire mounting and
> ballancing???
>
> My thought too. Mabee his twin brother from a different mother???


Yup

--
Tekkie
  #20  
Old December 19th 17, 02:18 AM posted to rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Do you have the electronics skills to design a good home made smoke machine?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 15:14:22 -0000 (UTC), Arthur Wood
> wrote:

>
>All we need to find vacuum leaks in a complex engine is a smoke machine
>that works. All it needs to do is...
>a. Emit lots of smoke that won't clog up an engine when it condenses, and,
>b. Constantly push that smoke at a couple of psi for about a half hour.


Find a few hippies and buy them a couple ounces of marijuana. There will
be lots of smoke...... <LOL>

You cant rent smoke machines like bands use on stage, at a music store
or theatrical supplies place. PRobably wont cost all that much to rent
for a few hours....

 




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