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Ford chief seeks help from Toyota



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 28th 06, 06:03 AM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Hairy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> My family is a Ford family, with the occasional Chrysler or Plymouth or
> whatnot thrown in. I haven't been without a Ford truck for twenty years,
> often owning two at a time (like now) but the two I own now are likely
> to be the last Ford products I own.
>
> Why? I'm sick and tired of bare bones vehicles. Every Ford I've owned
> (car or truck) has come with a ****ty stereo system, even their premium
> system isn't very good. My truck is a '99 XLT and doesn't have a lighted
> cargo box, doesn't have a retractable light under the hood, doesn't have
> an auto-dimming mirror, has the worst cassette stereo I've ever heard,
> doesn't have remote locks, the seat belts only half retract, has cloth
> seats... I mean basically it's an XLT and it's bare bones. Don't get me
> wrong, it's well built and reliable but I expect that by default these
> days.
>
> I've owned two Ranger class vehicles... an '86 Bronco II (piece of ****)
> and a '92 Ranger. Both required heavy maintenance, either alone required
> more maintenance than all the other vehicles I've owned combined. Next
> time I buy a small truck, why buy a Ford?
>
> I had a '94 Taurus that went 192,000 miles before it's first
> breakdown... the waterpump. Awesome reliability but very basic, ****ty
> sound system, utilitarian interior, no perks.
>
> I've owned a variety of other Fords... Mustang, several Broncos and a
> Thunderbird; the only one I would buy again would be a Mustang. Maybe
> one of those swanky convertible T-birds if I could afford it.
> --
> Mac Cool


Sounds like you bought on the cheap and now want to blame Ford for it.


Ads
  #12  
Old December 28th 06, 07:29 AM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Nicholas Anthony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


"Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> In the long run protecting our markets through tariffs etc. will do us no
> good. Our economic model isn't built to work this way. If we penalize
> imports then the domestic makers will just find a way to exploit it
> without improving the quality of their vehicles. Then the consumer
> suffers and the domestics dig themselves a deeper hole to crawl out from.
> Besides, Toyota is not selling their vehicles for less than Ford's or GM's
> counterparts. Most cases they are MORE expensive. People buy them anyway.


I disagree as there is competition from within that would improve the
market. The real reason we slipped was do to OPEC and oil. American
manufacturers had to come up with something more fuel efficient, smaller,
and better emissions. I dont recall hearing complaints of American cars in
the 60's or early 70's. It was only until we were forced to do something we
were not familiar with and had to adapt to something the Japanese and many
European makers already had been doing.


> IMO, the main problem facing Ford and GM is the perception of the public
> regarding their products. I don't think their vehicles are all that
> worse, or any worse for that matter, than the Japanese imports. The
> import companies have run circles around them from a marketing aspect.
> After the Mustang, what does Ford have to get anyone excited about their
> lineup? I can't think of any right off hand.


I agree they need to improve their image or if they try to re-invent it do
it in a way that you dont lose your base customers by what you are touching
on next paragraph.

>
> Here's another reason I think Ford has hit a marketing wall... they have
> abandoned vehicle names like the Taurus, Escort, Thunderbird etc. Now do
> you think Toyota would decide to kill off the Camry or Celica? Heck no
> they wouldn't. They understand the effect those long time model names
> have on selling their cars. Ford just tosses their car names into the
> garbage every 3-4 years and starts from scratch. IMO, it is beyond stupid
> to do this and is costing them heavily in market share.


Amen! How can you expect loyalty if you keep changing your identity? The
Ford Taurus had an awesome reputation and was a top seller. Why get rid of
the nameplate when it is doing well? Also if you are going to bring a 4 door
car based on the Mustang do us all a favor use it under a Mercury name so
they can get some recognition. Perhaps bring back a name like the Cougar
that everyone loved. Great alternative if people are sick of seeing so many
Mustangs or if they expect a family and need more room.

Nick


  #13  
Old December 28th 06, 07:31 AM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Nicholas Anthony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> The seem to well in the US.. GM and Ford still outsell any import brand
> in the US.
>
>
> mike


Then why did Toyota out sell Ford? How come they have their sights on
beating GM here very soon too?

Nick


  #14  
Old December 28th 06, 08:33 AM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota

In article >, Hairy wrote:

> Sounds like you bought on the cheap and now want to blame Ford for it.


Much of what he complains about doesn't go away with higher trim levels.
Look at the mustang just from '94 to '99. How much was decontented away?
Leather rear seat, underhood light, etc etc. I am still waiting for some
'94s to hit the local self serve yards so I can start pulling off things
that were decontented by '97.

And the utilitarian feel of cars like taurus? That doesn't go away at
all.


  #15  
Old December 28th 06, 04:37 PM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Mellowed
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


It appears that you really wanted the Lariat model.


"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: My family is a Ford family, with the occasional Chrysler or Plymouth
or
: whatnot thrown in. I haven't been without a Ford truck for twenty
years,
: often owning two at a time (like now) but the two I own now are likely
: to be the last Ford products I own.
:
: Why? I'm sick and tired of bare bones vehicles. Every Ford I've owned
: (car or truck) has come with a ****ty stereo system, even their
premium
: system isn't very good. My truck is a '99 XLT and doesn't have a
lighted
: cargo box, doesn't have a retractable light under the hood, doesn't
have
: an auto-dimming mirror, has the worst cassette stereo I've ever heard,
: doesn't have remote locks, the seat belts only half retract, has cloth
: seats... I mean basically it's an XLT and it's bare bones. Don't get
me
: wrong, it's well built and reliable but I expect that by default these
: days.
:
: I've owned two Ranger class vehicles... an '86 Bronco II (piece of
****)
: and a '92 Ranger. Both required heavy maintenance, either alone
required
: more maintenance than all the other vehicles I've owned combined. Next
: time I buy a small truck, why buy a Ford?
:
: I had a '94 Taurus that went 192,000 miles before it's first
: breakdown... the waterpump. Awesome reliability but very basic, ****ty
: sound system, utilitarian interior, no perks.
:
: I've owned a variety of other Fords... Mustang, several Broncos and a
: Thunderbird; the only one I would buy again would be a Mustang. Maybe
: one of those swanky convertible T-birds if I could afford it.
: --
: Mac Cool


  #16  
Old December 28th 06, 10:34 PM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
dave
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


"Grover C. McCoury III" > wrote in message
...
> By Micheline Maynard
> International Herald Tribune
>
> December 27, 2006
>
> (Detroit) The new chief executive of Ford Motor, which is struggling to
> bounce back from one of the worst crises in its history, met last week in
> Tokyo with the chairman of Toyota Motor, which is poised to become the
> world's biggest auto maker next year.
>
> Ford's chief executive, Alan Mulally, and Mark Fields, the head of Ford
> operations for the Americas, attended the meeting last week with Toyota's
> chairman, Fujio Cho, and other top Toyota executives, senior officers at
> both companies said Tuesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity.
>
> Toyota issued a statement Wednesday describing the meeting as a courtesy
> call, but did not say what was discussed.
>
> "We held talks at the request of Ford," the president of Toyota, Katsuaki
> Watanabe, said in Nagoya, according to Bloomberg News, citing Kyodo News.
>
> Toyota and Ford officials, as well as the Japanese news media that first
> reported on the meeting, indicated that the talks had focused on

developing
> environmentally friendly technology, like hybrid-electric and hydrogen

fuel
> systems, as well as on ways that Toyota could help Ford improve its
> manufacturing efficiency.
>
> The meeting of Mulally, Fields and Cho follows talks held this summer
> between General Motors, Renault of France and Nissan of Japan.
>
> But Ford and Toyota are not believed to have discussed anything that
> resembled the joint purchasing or car- production ideas that were the
> subject of GM's talks with Renault and Nissan, which ended in October
> without any agreement.
>
> Ford and Toyota have an association that stretches back to the 1950s, when
> Ford allowed managers from Toyota, which was trying to regroup after World
> War II, to study the operations at its giant Rouge complex in Dearborn,
> Michigan.
>
> The visits helped Taichi Ohno develop the Toyota production system, which
> emphasizes driving out waste, fostering worker involvement and making
> continuous improvements on the factory floor.
>
> Toyota also came to Ford in the 1980s when it was looking for an American
> partner with which to open its first plant in the United States.
>
> The two companies held brief discussions that could have led to a joint
> Ford- Toyota venture to build a version of the midsize Camry for each
> company. Instead, Toyota entered into a joint venture with GM that

recently
> celebrated its 20th anniversary.
>
> Now, Toyota and Ford may work together again as Ford tries to regroup from

a
> third-quarter loss of $5.8 billion in North America.
>
> Cho, who worked under Ohno and ran Toyota's plant in Georgetown, Kentucky,
> before becoming its chief executive and subsequently its chairman, is
> concerned about the financial problems facing Ford, an executive at Toyota
> said.
>
> "If he can do anything to help them out of this, he would like to," the
> executive said.
>
> Analysts have said that Ford probably had little to offer Toyota in terms

of
> cash or know-how, though Toyota could be seeking access to Ford's hybrid
> technology. Rather, they said, Toyota was probably hoping to deflect
> criticism from Washington as it seeks to overtake GM.
>
> "If it forges a relationship with Ford, Toyota is probably hoping it will

be
> seen as a goodwill move," said Chester Dawson, author of "Lexus: The
> Relentless Pursuit." He added, "Toyota is wary of inciting trade

friction."
>
> James Womack, co-author of "The Machine That Changed The World," which
> examines Japanese automakers' American plants, said, "Toyota has nothing

to
> gain, either politically or in the market, by letting Ford fail fast."
>
> Toyota, the world leader in hybrid- electric cars, already licenses hybrid
> technology to Ford, which sells a hybrid version of the Ford Escape, a

small
> sport utility vehicle.
>
> Ford has its own hybrid program, but it cut back on hybrid development

this
> year when it decided to place more emphasis on developing flexible fuel
> vehicles that can run on gasoline and another type of fuel, like ethanol.
>
> Ford buys parts for its hybrid vehicles from Aisin Seiki, a supplier that

is
> partly owned by Toyota and part of its global network of parts-making
> companies. Ford and Aisin have had disputes over the number of parts Aisin
> was willing to make available for Ford vehicles.
>
> Mulally is a student of the Toyota production system and used a form of it
> on assembly lines at the Boeing, where he was head of the commercial
> airplanes division before joining Ford in September.
>
> Mulally and Fields flew from the United States to Japan and returned
> immediately afterward, people with direct knowledge of their trip said
> Tuesday. During an interview Friday, Mulally gave no hint that he had made
> the trip, which is a round-trip flight lasting about 24 hours.
>
> The long journey reflects the value Mulally places on Ford's relationship
> with Toyota, according to a company officer with knowledge of his views.
> Only a year ago, Bill Ford Jr., then Ford's chief executive, sounded a

more
> competitive note.
>
> "My goal is to fight Toyota and everybody else and come out on top," Ford
> said during an interview with Time magazine, adding: "I'm not ceding
> anything to Toyota. They're an excellent company, and they're a terrific
> competitor, but I look forward to taking them on."
>
> Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mustang Mach 1 @
> http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt
>
>


Once ford cuts away the fat brought about by decades of union demands and
managment excess,
they will be back on track.Never be 1st but at least a viable competitor.
I'm sure its gonna hurt a lot of people before it gets better.
The auto industry is NOW no different than any other job that pays you on
performance.
Make good stuff at a good price and they will come.
I know easier said than done!



  #17  
Old December 28th 06, 11:18 PM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Michael Johnson, PE
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 272
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota

Nicholas Anthony wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In the long run protecting our markets through tariffs etc. will do us no
>> good. Our economic model isn't built to work this way. If we penalize
>> imports then the domestic makers will just find a way to exploit it
>> without improving the quality of their vehicles. Then the consumer
>> suffers and the domestics dig themselves a deeper hole to crawl out from.
>> Besides, Toyota is not selling their vehicles for less than Ford's or GM's
>> counterparts. Most cases they are MORE expensive. People buy them anyway.

>
> I disagree as there is competition from within that would improve the
> market. The real reason we slipped was do to OPEC and oil. American
> manufacturers had to come up with something more fuel efficient, smaller,
> and better emissions. I dont recall hearing complaints of American cars in
> the 60's or early 70's. It was only until we were forced to do something we
> were not familiar with and had to adapt to something the Japanese and many
> European makers already had been doing.


The problem is that the domestics aren't making cars that the public
wants in their driveways. If the Japanese can make desirable cars then
why can't Ford and GM? Protecting their markets will not force them to
make better cars. In fact, it will have the opposite effect. There
won't be any pressure on them to make better vehicles.

Detroit had no real competition in the 50s, 60s and 70s so how would any
of us know to complain? We had only one point of reference... theirs.
Now we have a choice and many of us are choosing the imports.

>> IMO, the main problem facing Ford and GM is the perception of the public
>> regarding their products. I don't think their vehicles are all that
>> worse, or any worse for that matter, than the Japanese imports. The
>> import companies have run circles around them from a marketing aspect.
>> After the Mustang, what does Ford have to get anyone excited about their
>> lineup? I can't think of any right off hand.

>
> I agree they need to improve their image or if they try to re-invent it do
> it in a way that you dont lose your base customers by what you are touching
> on next paragraph.


Ford and GM need to concentrate on making good vehicles. Ford has spent
too much money buying other brands (Volvo, Aston-Martin, Jaguar etc.)
and not nearly enough on vehicle development within the
Ford/Lincoln/Mercury moniker. Their are now buying hybrid technology
from Toyota! They should be developing their own technology and selling
to others.

>> Here's another reason I think Ford has hit a marketing wall... they have
>> abandoned vehicle names like the Taurus, Escort, Thunderbird etc. Now do
>> you think Toyota would decide to kill off the Camry or Celica? Heck no
>> they wouldn't. They understand the effect those long time model names
>> have on selling their cars. Ford just tosses their car names into the
>> garbage every 3-4 years and starts from scratch. IMO, it is beyond stupid
>> to do this and is costing them heavily in market share.

>
> Amen! How can you expect loyalty if you keep changing your identity? The
> Ford Taurus had an awesome reputation and was a top seller. Why get rid of
> the nameplate when it is doing well? Also if you are going to bring a 4 door
> car based on the Mustang do us all a favor use it under a Mercury name so
> they can get some recognition. Perhaps bring back a name like the Cougar
> that everyone loved. Great alternative if people are sick of seeing so many
> Mustangs or if they expect a family and need more room.
>
> Nick
>
>

  #18  
Old December 28th 06, 11:24 PM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Jeff[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 91
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> The seem to well in the US.. GM and Ford still outsell any import brand
> in the US.
>
>
> mike
>
>
> "Michael Johnson, PE" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Whitelightning wrote:
>>> "Brent P" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> In article >, Nicholas Anthony wrote:
>>>>> Goes to show you that our Government isnt looking out for the best
>>> interest
>>>>> of our country and rather the worlds opinion of us, sigh. Imagine if
>>>>> we
>>>>> impose the same tactics to Japan they do on our products.
>>>> Japan isn't a problem IMO. Simply make a better product, that's all
>>>> that's needed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One post, as I have hashed this out too many times in the past. Ford
>>> and
>>> GM are as
>>> good or better than anything Nissan, Toyota, Honda, or any of their
>>> subsidiaries produce. They are
>>> a 100 fold better than the junk Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, or Mitsubishi put
>>> out.
>>>
>>> All one has to do is research the number and types of recalls the asians
>>> have been having for almost 2 decades
>>> vrs what Ford and GM have been issuing.
>>> Of course researching that is hard these days, since AllData and
>>> Mitchell
>>> both pulled the lists for Asian cars
>>> this year. I wonder why they did that.

>>
>> The only place the domestic automakers are getting their a$$ kicked is in
>> the marketing of their products. They have good vehicles but can't seem
>> to sell them to the public.


They may sell well, but not at a profit. Ford and GM are supposed to be
for-profit companies. At the moment, they aren't.

Jeff


  #19  
Old December 28th 06, 11:26 PM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Jeff[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 91
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota


"Nicholas Anthony" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The seem to well in the US.. GM and Ford still outsell any import brand
>> in the US.
>>
>>
>> mike

>
> Then why did Toyota out sell Ford? How come they have their sights on
> beating GM here very soon too?
>
> Nick


Because they sell terrific cars (just like GM and Ford). But, unlike GM and
Ford, they sell them at a profit. Plus, they are able to sell many
fuel-efficient cars, because they have so much more experience building and
selling them than Ford and GM. And at a profit, too.

Jeff


  #20  
Old December 29th 06, 12:41 AM posted to alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford,rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Bruce L. Bergman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Ford chief seeks help from Toyota

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:34:52 -0500, "dave" >
wrote:

>Once ford cuts away the fat brought about by decades of union
>demands and managment excess, they will be back on track.
>Never be 1st but at least a viable competitor. I'm sure its
>gonna hurt a lot of people before it gets better.


Unfortunately, the only way to get out from under "all that baggage"
that they have been dragging around will be to declare bankruptcy -
which will have devastating and long term effects on the US economy.

You could head this off by having ALL the US based automakers (at
once), their investors and bondholders, their subcontractors and
suppliers, and the Unions representing all their labor forces
renegotiate their contracts and agreements now, while the companies
are still viable.

One of the stipulations would have to be that all the pension and
benefit liabilities have to be caught up on and the trust funds made
whole NOW, even if that lowers the wage rate some more.

Unfortunately, you aren't going to get them all to agree to this -
the unions still have the attitude "We won these rights through
collective bargaining, and we are going to keep them!"

Last I checked, keeping 100% of nothing still isn't a good deal.
Berating a dead horse helps nobody - first you have to stop the
beatings and nurse it back to health, then we talk again.

The bankruptcy wipes out all the investor equity, except for the few
privileged people that can use dodges like preferred stock or the few
secured things the BK court can't touch. Ford stock was once
considered one of the solid "Widows and Orphans" investments that
would never go away - not anymore... Any suppliers owed large sums by
Ford will be hurt, some could be put under.

All the current employees and retirees will be hurt, badly. They
can annul all the contracts, and use the leverage of "Sign the
contract we put in front of you, or we don't open back up at all."
This guarantees a workforce that really doesn't care whether the
company survives or not...

The health insurance and other benefits will go away or be severely
restricted, and the pension plans will go under and the (deliberately
long under-funded) pension liabilities will be dumped on the US
Pension Benefit Guaranty Fund - paid out of the General Fund which
will hurt the US Economy.

And when the PBGF takes over the plans, the retiree benefit payout's
drop a LOT compared to what was originally negotiated.

>The auto industry is NOW no different than any other job that pays
>you on performance. Make good stuff at a good price and they will
>I come. know easier said than done!


And there is a large lag time to consider - it can be several years
between when they start actually delivering quality products at a good
price that are also easy and inexpensive to repair and maintain over
the long haul, and when you can convince the public that it has really
happened, and that they won't backslide.

When you can change simple things simply - like swap the heater core
in any Ford vehicle inside of two hours, or get to all the sparkplugs
without disconnecting the motor mounts and lifting the engine
partially out of the car or cutting a hole in the firewall (among
other bonehead stunts they've pulled over the decades) - then I'll
believe that they've fixed the engineering.

--<< Bruce >>--

 




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