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2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 11th 16, 12:20 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range


Bill Vanek:


Tires on car all match original size, load, and
speed ratings on B-pillar decal.

I'm running them at just 2psi over spec, which
should not be a big deal, compared to some
of my friends cars, which differ 5-10psi from
one corner to the next, LOL.

The rears are moderately worn Khumo Solus
KH's - what Hyundai and Kia seem to put
on all of their cars at factory. The fronts are
newer Nexens, an upgrade available at all
Hyundai & Kia dealers for Sonata and the
Optima.

I definitely plan to replace them before this
winter with higher consumer-rated Continentals.

However: I have never, ever, felt a handling
improvement from changing tires on any car
I've owned. Alignment, and proper tire
pressures have always been the biggest
influence for me.
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  #22  
Old August 11th 16, 05:53 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 6:17:20 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 5:06:51 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:49:28 PM UTC-10, wrote:
> >> >> >> dsi1:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
> >> >> >> understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
> >> >> >> were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
> >> >> >> it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
> >> >> >> used one with 30,000 miles.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
> >> >> >> steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
> >> >> >> set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
> >> >> >> dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
> >> >> >> to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
> >> >> >> a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
> >> >> >> It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
> >> >> >> full size models.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
> >> >> >> feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
> >> >> >> caster - within specs - would really ice the cake.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Just tell the alignment guy your problem and he'll probably just change the toe-im. I don't know if they'll be in spec but that should improve straight line stability. The young alignment guy might not want to do it so find the oldest, most ornery-looking coot in the shop and ask him. The price you pay will be increased tire wear.
> >> >>
> >> >> Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
> >> >> car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
> >> >> return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.
> >> >
> >> >I believe that the OP is experiencing wandering back and forth.
> >>
> >> He is, but in a subsequent post we can see that the toe is okay. He
> >> does have a thrust angle issue - it's non-zero, but I don't know how
> >> far off is too far off.

> >
> >If it wanders, doesn't that mean that the toe is not OK?

>
> Not if it measures okay. Crappy tires, road surface, loose/worn parts
> - including in the rear, probably other things I'm forgetting, those
> will cause it. Also, it it's the toe, the car will tend to jump around
> side to side, and in small amounts, as opposed to just slowly drifting
> back and forth.
>
> > You have to get an experienced alignment guy to adjust the toe-in based on the problem. The toe-in might not be to spec. If this is a common problem with these cars, then you'll have to go out of spec. Well that's my opinion anyway. If you're saying that he has to get the rear end squared away first well, yes, of course.


I should have known that adjusting the toe-in is too simple a solution for this group. That's the breaks.
  #23  
Old August 11th 16, 06:59 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

dsi1:

The only toe adjustment with directional
consequences is rear. Front is a tire
wear matter, and steering wheel
angle at straight ahead.
  #24  
Old August 11th 16, 07:45 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 03:55:08 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Bill Vanek, dsi1:
>
>
>Thank you for all of your well-thought out
> insights!
>
>Bill: The wander is gradual, over time, and
>having both hands on the wheel at all times
>seems to minimize it, but it is a tiring way to
>have to drive.
>
>The elephant in the room seems to be that
>front cross camber, which my alignment
>sheet seems to indicate equals negative 0.5.
>I always thought the difference betwen -0.8
>and -02. is 0.6. That is enough for concern,
>and it seems correcting that alone would solve
>my problem.
>
>The excessive rear toe could be corrected
>at some point in the future.
>
>I actually prefer a *gradual* pull(or point) to
>the right, for obvious safety reasons, and
>that is what would happen once that front
>neg camber is closer to equal. As it is now,
>changes in local road crown and overall
>road angle are producing gradual wander
>either way, at local speeds and highway
>speed. I read somewhere about 'camber
>thrust' - and I believe that is what my front
>cross camber is contributing to.
>
>I just need to find someone who is willing
>to do *whatever* it takes to fix it - replace
>parts, slot something, whatever!
>
>I have not made my first payment on this
>car yet, and will return it if this issue
>cannot be solved.


If it always drifts off in the same direction, in your case to the
left, try fixing the camber. I saw this online:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...it/MOK928.html

If it's drifting to the right, try swapping the front tires side to
side.

If it drifts only some of the time, remember that the road itself can
cause this, and BTW, increasing the caster would make that problem
worse.

And there is no point at all in not correcting the rear toe. It's a
trivial adjustment.
  #25  
Old August 11th 16, 07:54 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel

Thanks Bill:

At least we've narrowed it down.

I showed those kits to both dealers and they said all they are is
a pile of bolts and washers, that 'additional hardware' is
needed to adjust the front camber.

And my local body shops said they won't touch the
front camber without a 'kit'. The concensus here
is that neither the dealers nor the outside body
places know exactly what the F- is needed to
adjust front camber on these Sonatas(2011-14).
  #26  
Old August 11th 16, 07:54 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel

Thanks Bill:

At least we've narrowed it down.

I showed those kits to both dealers and they said all they are is
a pile of bolts and washers, that 'additional hardware' is
needed to adjust the front camber.

And my local body shops said they won't touch the
front camber without a 'kit'. The concensus here
is that neither the dealers nor the outside body
places know exactly what the F- is needed to
adjust front camber on these Sonatas(2011-14).
  #28  
Old August 11th 16, 10:54 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel


Bill Vanek wrote: "it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
before it leaves the lane? "


Drift: 70% left / 30% right. Also, it is slightly easier to
steer left than to steer right.

Conditions: Drift is dependent on crown/overall angle
of roadway.

Could be one eighth to one quarter mile before drifting
across dotted line on a highway, at 60-65mph.

If highway or local street is reasonably and consistently
crowned, Sonata will go straight or slightly to the right.

As soon as the road flattens out, it will slowly drift
left, toward the dotted white or double yellow.


I would really rather do the 'kit thang' as far as reducing
front cross-camber is concerned, rather than the surgery
you suggested. SOMEBODY out in Hyundai World must
know what that front camber bolt kit consisted of, and
could explain it to me and see if it still exists somewhere
on planet Earth. :s

  #29  
Old August 12th 16, 12:09 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>
>Bill Vanek wrote: "it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
>before it leaves the lane? "
>
>
>Drift: 70% left / 30% right. Also, it is slightly easier to
>steer left than to steer right.
>
>Conditions: Drift is dependent on crown/overall angle
>of roadway.


Well that's the end of it right there. There is nothing at all you can
do about that, and as I said in another post, increasing caster will
make that worse. Another influence is the width of the tires. The
wider they are, the more the car will react to the road. If you are
comparing this car to another one, it's pointless unless the cars are
identical.

>Could be one eighth to one quarter mile before drifting
>across dotted line on a highway, at 60-65mph.


That's not unusual.

>If highway or local street is reasonably and consistently
>crowned, Sonata will go straight or slightly to the right.


>As soon as the road flattens out, it will slowly drift
>left, toward the dotted white or double yellow.


But how do you know that it's "flat"? Crowned is one thing, but the
road surface is not necessarily level, and that's impossible to
determine visually.

>I would really rather do the 'kit thang' as far as reducing
>front cross-camber is concerned, rather than the surgery
>you suggested. SOMEBODY out in Hyundai World must
>know what that front camber bolt kit consisted of, and
>could explain it to me and see if it still exists somewhere
>on planet Earth. :s


You can't use a kit without elongating the holes. There might be ball
joints that will allow a camber/caster adjustment, though.

To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with the car. But
if on the exact same stretch of road, in the same lane, it sometimes
goes left, and sometimes right, that's something else entirely, but I
don't think that's the case after reading this post.
  #30  
Old August 12th 16, 12:31 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel


Bill Vanek wrote: "You can't use a kit without elongating the holes. There might be ball
joints that will allow a camber/caster adjustment, though. "


Not the case with Sonata YF(2011-14) series: A camber kit was required
and was provided for front camber adj. It was analagous to a key that
unlocked a safe or whatever. Some parts were bolted on to that part
of the suspension that allowed for camber adjustment, and the adjustment
was made. No drilling, no guessing.

What remains unknown is which years of the YF series was the kit provided
for. A check of my VIN by one of the dealer parts depts showed no kit
available for my car. So it looks like some surgery might be necessary to
equalize that front neg. camber and reduce cross-camber maybe to 0.2 or
..3 degrees.

The local body shops said they are "adamantly" reluctant to do this on a
recent car like my Sonata until all potentially worn/loose/or bent parts are
diagnosed. I bought the car at 29,900 miles, and it now has about
30,500, still relatively new, and I want my investment to be something
I want to jump in and drive every day to work, the supermarket, or
wherever.

 




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