civic oil filters redux

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>
>>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end
>>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of
>>> the medium? Now poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes to
>>> push the drainback flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe
>>> will fill instantly. Try it.
>> the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is oil
>> in the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely clogged!
>
>
>
>
> Then the OEM Toyota ones I buy are bad too. They also will not fill the
> center pipe until you push the (black rubber) drainback flap out of the way
> first, at which point the center pipe fills instantly.
>

as it should if it's full of oil. what i'm talking about, and what you
admit you haven't done, is checking the situation when the motor has
stood for 30-60 minutes before unscrewing the filter. if the filter is
empty, the drain valve leaked. and 100% of the honda filters i have
used, new and old type, have drained completely empty when left to
stand. none of the quality aftermarket filters i have used - champion
labs, denso, npn, have done this.

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> t:
>
> .
>> you'll never notice this if you warm the engine and change the filter
>> immediately, as most people do. but if you warm the engine, then wait
>> 30-60 minutes, you'll find the fram filter completely empty because
>> the valve has leaked. the filter should be full, and stay full
>> because the valve should only allow oil one way.
>>
>
>
>
> Unless the filter medium is too "open", which is true of FRAM's and
> others' cheap aftermarket filters.
>
> The filter medium must allow partial vacuum to be held in order to keep the
> oil inside the dirty side of the filter so it will be full for next time
> you start the car. This is fundamental to oil filter operation. The
> drainback flap provides one seal, the filter medium provides the other.

sorry dude, that's not correct. any "vacuum" associated with filtration
is a function of flow rate. if the rate is effectively zero, as with a
filter sitting on your drive way, there is zero vacuum, and it
/definitely/ shouldn't hold against simple gravity drain.


>
> If the filter medium did not provide its own sealing, the oil would drain
> out through the medium even in the presence of an effective anti-drainback
> flap.

to the point of exit. because the filter is mounted horizontally, it
should thus retain oil to the bottom of the center hole. filters with
leaky drainback valves don't do that - they empty completely.


>
> Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing he
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf

that's simply talking about draining the filter! there is no "vacuum"
since there is no flow rate - they are incorrect using that word.
punching a hole is just creating an exit for the oil to drain out.

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> Tegger wrote:

>
>
>>
>> Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing he
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf
>
> that's simply talking about draining the filter! there is no "vacuum"
> since there is no flow rate - they are incorrect using that word.
> punching a hole is just creating an exit for the oil to drain out.
>



The point is that the oil will not seep through the medium until you do
what they say to do.

jim, please try this yourself. Use a newish filter with low miles on it,
just so "clogging" isn't a significant variable.

Hold the oil filter open end up. The oil in a used filter will not pass
into the center pipe until you push the drainback flap open. As soon as you
push the flap open with a punch or screwdriver or anything else, the oil
will immediately begin to fill the center pipe by passing through the
medium.

I have seen this so many times with my very own eyes.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end
>>>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of
>>>> the medium? Now poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes
>>>> to push the drainback flap back and break the vacuum. The center
>>>> pipe will fill instantly. Try it.
>>> the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is
>>> oil in the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely
>>> clogged!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Then the OEM Toyota ones I buy are bad too. They also will not fill
>> the center pipe until you push the (black rubber) drainback flap out
>> of the way first, at which point the center pipe fills instantly.
>>
>
> as it should if it's full of oil. what i'm talking about, and what
> you admit you haven't done, is checking the situation when the motor
> has stood for 30-60 minutes before unscrewing the filter.



My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on the
ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes much less
mess on the block when the filter is then removed. Plus the ewxhaust is
cooler then, so I'm less likely to burn myself.

The Tercel is drained after sitting OVERNIGHT.

Both cars' filters ARE STILL FULL. I push the flap open, the center pipe
begins to fill from the dirty side. But not before the flap is pushed open.

Try it.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> t:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>
>>
>>> Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing he
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf
>> that's simply talking about draining the filter! there is no "vacuum"
>> since there is no flow rate - they are incorrect using that word.
>> punching a hole is just creating an exit for the oil to drain out.
>>
>
>
>
> The point is that the oil will not seep through the medium until you do
> what they say to do.

but it does!


>
> jim, please try this yourself. Use a newish filter with low miles on it,
> just so "clogging" isn't a significant variable.

i have.


>
> Hold the oil filter open end up. The oil in a used filter will not pass
> into the center pipe until you push the drainback flap open.

it does.


> As soon as you
> push the flap open with a punch or screwdriver or anything else, the oil
> will immediately begin to fill the center pipe by passing through the
> medium.

it may go slightly faster, but it still passes through without that.


>
> I have seen this so many times with my very own eyes.
>

if the filter is full, it refills the center tube regardless of fiddling
with the valve. it may be faster with the valve opened, but if the
medium is not allowing oil through, it's clogged. end of story.

but we're talking at crossed purposes - this has nothing to do with
whether the filter empties because of a leaking drain-back valve. if
the filter empties, i.e. no center pipe filling, and it weighs the same
as an empty filter, and /there is no spill when unscrewing the filter/
the drainback valve is leaking. period. you should test this part of
what i said before getting sidetracked onto arguments about filter
medium flow.

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> t:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>>> jim beam > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end
>>>>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of
>>>>> the medium? Now poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes
>>>>> to push the drainback flap back and break the vacuum. The center
>>>>> pipe will fill instantly. Try it.
>>>> the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is
>>>> oil in the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely
>>>> clogged!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then the OEM Toyota ones I buy are bad too. They also will not fill
>>> the center pipe until you push the (black rubber) drainback flap out
>>> of the way first, at which point the center pipe fills instantly.
>>>
>> as it should if it's full of oil. what i'm talking about, and what
>> you admit you haven't done, is checking the situation when the motor
>> has stood for 30-60 minutes before unscrewing the filter.
>
>
>
> My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on the
> ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes much less
> mess on the block when the filter is then removed. Plus the ewxhaust is
> cooler then, so I'm less likely to burn myself.
>
> The Tercel is drained after sitting OVERNIGHT.
>
> Both cars' filters ARE STILL FULL. I push the flap open, the center pipe
> begins to fill from the dirty side. But not before the flap is pushed open.
>
> Try it.
>

apart from the technical misunderstanding, it appears that you have been
lucky enough to get filters with working valves. my experience is that
all my honda filters have had leaky valves, none of my aftermarket ones
have. repetition is getting us nowhere.

The smaller filter was around for a long time, wonder what made Honda
go to that size in recent years. Cheaper freight?

If they perform the same why the larger filter in the first place. I
use Bosch Filtech or Purolator PureOne. Both are the larger version.


On Dec 6, 11:12 am, z > wrote:
> went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer
> noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda
> oil filters for a 92 civic (now with added B16, same filter, right?)
> One is fatter and says honeywell made in canada and the other is
> smaller and says filtec and is made in Japan (I might have some of
> this backwards I'm working from memory here). Did they change over?
> It's annoying because now I have to go buy another cup type filter
> wrench.
>
> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if
> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time
> to fill up and pass the oil along.

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> Tegger wrote:

>>
>> My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on
>> the ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes
>> much less mess on the block when the filter is then removed. Plus the
>> ewxhaust is cooler then, so I'm less likely to burn myself.
>>
>> The Tercel is drained after sitting OVERNIGHT.
>>
>> Both cars' filters ARE STILL FULL. I push the flap open, the center
>> pipe begins to fill from the dirty side. But not before the flap is
>> pushed open.
>>
>> Try it.
>>
>
> apart from the technical misunderstanding, it appears that you have
> been lucky enough to get filters with working valves.




"Lucky"? For 14 years?

I change my oil about six times a year. That's 84 filters over that time
(ALL OEM), not counting the dozen or so (OEM) for the Tercel. I must be
awfully lucky indeed to have had 83 out of 84 filters with good valves when
I should have had precisely the opposite experience.






--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> t:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>
>>> My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on
>>> the ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes
>>> much less mess on the block when the filter is then removed. Plus the
>>> ewxhaust is cooler then, so I'm less likely to burn myself.
>>>
>>> The Tercel is drained after sitting OVERNIGHT.
>>>
>>> Both cars' filters ARE STILL FULL. I push the flap open, the center
>>> pipe begins to fill from the dirty side. But not before the flap is
>>> pushed open.
>>>
>>> Try it.
>>>
>> apart from the technical misunderstanding, it appears that you have
>> been lucky enough to get filters with working valves.
>
>
>
>
> "Lucky"? For 14 years?
>
> I change my oil about six times a year. That's 84 filters over that time
> (ALL OEM), not counting the dozen or so (OEM) for the Tercel. I must be
> awfully lucky indeed to have had 83 out of 84 filters with good valves when
> I should have had precisely the opposite experience.
>


again, we're talking at crossed purposes. i'm talking about a leaking
valve, which you have not seen, where the filter completely empties
before it's taken off the car, not whether the center pipe fills - a
different matter entirely.

Tegger ) writes:
> (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> :
>
>> Tegger ) writes:
>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a
>> filter strap wrench.
>
>
>
> I have one of those too. Good way to break the oil pressure switch on my
> car, which is exactly what I did before I got smart and bought the socket-
> type. Not enough room at the back of the B-block for the strap type.
>
> I have six or seven different types of oil filter wrenches, accumulated
> over the years.
>

You could have made your own strap wrench. Take a half inch extension
(the cheapest you can find... rusty thrown out ones found in garbage
bins are the best... because they're free), acquire a 10 or 12 inch
length of braided flat cable (steel), one inch or so wide, braze the ends
of the cable to the extension flats so you have a flat cable loop on the
end of the extension, slip the loop on the filter, insert half inch drive
ratchet and turn (flat cable needs to loop on itself to bind). As always,
check clearances when building things.

My strap type oil filter wrench (with hinged handle) has yet to be
stymied. I did modify it decades ago by gluing (contact cement) a strip
of emery cloth to the inside of the strap for terrific grip.


>
>
>> When I encountered the new tiny Kohler-12HP-type
>> Honda OEM filter, I just went out and got a used (very cheap) dirt
>> bike motorcycle tire tube (forget what size), and sectioned it, with a
>> pair of scissors, into what looks like 1.25" wide rubber bands. I
>> stretched the newly created bands over the pee-wee filter until my
>> strap wrench fit. Worked like a charm.
>>
>> People should be careful when installing the pee-wee OEM Honda oil
>> filter, there is a chance of bottoming the metal of the filter-can
>> against the filter base and damaging the filter base.
>
>
>
> So I've heard. And I wonder about that assertion. I have never personally
> even come close to bottoming out the new OEM filter.
>

They will on a 3Gee, and they do it at the prescribed 3/4 turn from gasket
contact at the base. The old large OEM and non OEM filters needed
the filter wrench to get the 3/4 turn (except for Arnold where muscle
power is always a no problemo for him). The pee-wee filters go 3/4 turn by
hand.The above refers to a 3Gee. I always scribe a line on the end of
the filter can with a screwdriver before installing. A radial line from
the center.

>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/