Guess What (follow-up)?

JP,
siezed calipers, pooched rotors.
Apparently, the rear calipers must not like the salty winter roads so much -
I was told the local Stealership goes through loads of brake replacements
every spring on CRV's and Odysseys - bad owners, of course.
Honda used to be different - they replaced the whole rear suspension and gas
tank on a recall on my parent's 1982 Civic Wagon when it was 13 years old.
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ
1980 Audi 5k
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)

"JP Roberts" > wrote in message
...
>
> After having a massive rear brake
> > replacement (cables, calipers, rotors) on my wife's 2k2 CRV,
>
> Why this replacement?
>
>

JP Roberts wrote:

>are the rare exceptions. But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I
>think it's the make's policy that's faulty. If you doubt what I'm saying I
>would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our make
>has covered something after the guarantee had expired.

Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are
concerned?

In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the
impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got
their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have
absolutely no inclination to write that down.

The Audi Group delivered 1.2 Million units to customers in 2004 and
2003. Volkswagen as a total 5 Million Units per year worldwide. How
many posts does Audiworld have which are that negative? How many
posters show up here every month to ask for some help? 10? 20?

But I can only meanwhile recommend the same as other posters: Go and
get another brand?

Regards

Wolfgang

--
1999 Audi A6 Avant TDI

JP Roberts wrote:
> I do know the basics about assembly line work, but then again I bet
there is
> not only one coil pack manufacturer in the world.

For that particular application? You do not have the slightest clue
about the particulars of that case, and now you somehow claim to know
about how many suppliers there are?

OK, here's an exercise for your own amusement - a question to which I
actually know the answer:

At the time of VAG's coil pack problem, how many manufacturers could
have supplied, at a one-week notice, a batch of one hundred of those
specified coil packs?

> So, it's nothing a
> couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant.

Answer the question above for enlightenment.

> > There's more to your story than you are saying. In fact, BMW had a
> > very specific problem with their M3s, due to oil issues. And some
> > dealers do work with their customers, to make sure they come back,
> > regardless of corporate policy. I know of several people who had
> > warranty work done outside of warranty eligibility, just because
they
> > had good dealer relations.
> >
> This is what they should all do, although of course only if there's a
good
> reason enough, which happens to be the case.

Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks, we'll
fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no matter
what sort of abuse or modification? OK, so that's the silly extreme,
but there does have to be a line drawn somewhere. You happened to fall
on the other side of it, and your dealership is taking a hard line and
saying "tough luck."

Just like every other manufacturer's dealerships in the vast majority
of these kinds of cases. Wishing otherwise is a foolish exercise.

> > Are you an engineer? No? Then you cannot say that it's a "clear
> > case."
> Well, now I can see you're just a would-be knowitall.

You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I guess I
really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much
prattling on.

> Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no
denying
> the bad engineering.

Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is
meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who have a
monetary interest in getting your car on a hoist is not evidence. I
suppose in your courses of study in engineering you had to take some
classes in real, hard sciences, right? You can tell the difference
between hard and anecdotal data, yes?

> If I'm not naming the dealer it's only because it's thousands of
miles away
> from where most of you probably are, so you're perfectly safe in that

> respect, and because the point is that this contemptible behaviour is
pretty
> much extended where I am based.

All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your*
credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of the
doubt to the customer, and assume the dealer is the problem. Now I'm
beginning to get another idea in your specific case.

> I would dare to say that the good stories
> are the rare exceptions.

Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad.

> But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I
> think it's the make's policy that's faulty.

LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive lifetime
warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had
replaced under warranty.

> If you doubt what I'm saying I
> would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our
make
> has covered something after the guarantee had expired.

I would not expect them to cover something after the warranty had
expired, unless it was a recall item. Audi or some other manufacturer.
If you wanted a longer warranty, then you should have purchased one.
If the cost of repairing your out-of-warranty car is too dear, then you
need a different car that's cheaper to fix when it breaks.

I would like to know why you expect free service and parts after
warranty for non-recall items when that virtually never happens for any
other make or model. Why should Audi do what no one else does, and not
charge more for it?

E.P.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:39:31 GMT, Wolfgang Pawlinetz >
wrote:

>JP Roberts wrote:
>
>>are the rare exceptions. But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I
>>think it's the make's policy that's faulty. If you doubt what I'm saying I
>>would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our make
>>has covered something after the guarantee had expired.
>
>Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are
>concerned?
>
>In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the
>impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got
>their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have
>absolutely no inclination to write that down.

Allow me to praise my dealer (which I think I've done in this space:
John Holtz Audi in Rochester, NY). They've never ripped me off.
They've given me good advice and diagnoses. However, I have not
always (or often, for that matter) gone to them for major service work
because their prices are so much higher than the two independent shops
I can choose from locally. And those shops also do great jobs with
Audi and other Kraut import cars.

Back to the dealer: they're forthright about their prices, and my
market bears them, but I don't participate, that's all, beyond the
routine oil change for the most part. And they're still very good in
the customer care department. I value their involvement in the care
of my 1998 2.8 A4 Quattro.

Unfortunately, I've gotta replace some control arms on the front
passenger corner, at 86k miles, but that's life with an Audi, and I
still feel I'm coming out way ahead valuewise. This paid-off car is
still cheaper for me to run than a new car with payments, and I love
the whole driving experience with it. I'll be going to Universal
Imports for this work, I think, which will cost me half of what Holtz
would charge. But I do like CDI out in Victor, too.

Wolfgang, did you read my reply to those links posted above?
>
> Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are
> concerned?

These are still a minority when it comes down to general satisfaction with
the treatment received. Just do a search in Audiworld.
> In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the
> impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got
> their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have
> absolutely no inclination to write that down.

There's no denying that these newsgroup is a valuable asset, but no matter
how impressive your figures are, you're neglecting the fact that the vast
majority of Audi Owners will never take to the internet to vent their
frustrations with the make out.
> The Audi Group delivered 1.2 Million units to customers in 2004 and
> 2003. Volkswagen as a total 5 Million Units per year worldwide. How
> many posts does Audiworld have which are that negative? How many
> posters show up here every month to ask for some help? 10? 20?

I'm seriously considering BMW as my next buy.
> But I can only meanwhile recommend the same as other posters: Go and
> get another brand?
>
> Regards
>
> Wolfgang
>
> --
> 1999 Audi A6 Avant TDI

You very well know it was not a one-week notice period, but at least a
couple of months that we're talking about, so yes, just about every other
manufacturer could have done so easily.
> At the time of VAG's coil pack problem, how many manufacturers could
> have supplied, at a one-week notice, a batch of one hundred of those
> specified coil packs?
>
>> So, it's nothing a
>> couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant.

You know one of the virtues in life is that of showing some flexibility?
Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of
warranty?
> Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks, we'll
> fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no matter
> what sort of abuse or modification? OK, so that's the silly extreme,
> but there does have to be a line drawn somewhere. You happened to fall
> on the other side of it, and your dealership is taking a hard line and
> saying "tough luck."
>

You're right it's only your guess, which happens to be wrong.
> You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I guess I
> really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much
> prattling on.
>
>> Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no
> denying
>> the bad engineering.

Let me put it this way, when you see you're bleeding badly, do you need to
be a cardiovascular doctor to know if there's something seriously wrong?
Even a child would understand something like this.
> Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is
> meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who have a
> monetary interest in getting your car on a hoist is not evidence. I
> suppose in your courses of study in engineering you had to take some
> classes in real, hard sciences, right? You can tell the difference
> between hard and anecdotal data, yes?

I've long been questioning yours, as you fail to maintain a logical argument
by slightly diverting from the main topic all the time.
> All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your*
> credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of the
> doubt to the customer, and assume the dealer is the problem. Now I'm
> beginning to get another idea in your specific case.
>
This thread, but just conduct a search in Audiworld.
>> I would dare to say that the good stories
>> are the rare exceptions.
>
> Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad.
>

Again, you're failing to remember that it's a case of underengineering, so
another reason why your own credibility is close to nil.
> LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive lifetime
> warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had
> replaced under warranty.
>

In message >
"JP Roberts" > wrote:

[Snip]

> Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of
> warranty?

The only fault which has affected the drivability any of our Audis, in a
total 11.5 years of ownership was when a fuel injector failed on my 1996
A4 2.6. It failed about 2 months out of warranty but Audi UK covered
the repair at no cost to me.

--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')

Point taken, but check this, just for starters:

http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/869113.phtml
>
>> Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of
>> warranty?
>
> The only fault which has affected the drivability any of our Audis, in a
> total 11.5 years of ownership was when a fuel injector failed on my 1996
> A4 2.6. It failed about 2 months out of warranty but Audi UK covered
> the repair at no cost to me.
>
> --
> Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with
> 'bellfamily')

In article >,
JP Roberts > wrote:
>Wolfgang, did you read my reply to those links posted above?
>>
>> Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are
>> concerned?
>
>These are still a minority when it comes down to general satisfaction with
>the treatment received. Just do a search in Audiworld.
>> In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the
>> impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got
>> their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have
>> absolutely no inclination to write that down.
>
>There's no denying that these newsgroup is a valuable asset, but no matter
>how impressive your figures are, you're neglecting the fact that the vast
>majority of Audi Owners will never take to the internet to vent their
>frustrations with the make out.

If your intention is to convince readers here that all Audis are "under
engineered" and that we've all been ripped off, you will never succeed.
Those of us reading the group who have had good value and satisfactory
products from Audi, will sympathise but dismiss your story as a one-off.
That's the natural reaction if our experience doesn't match yours.

Time to move on, unless you're trying to speculate on a "class action".

--
David Nesbitt

N.B. Email sent to "nospam" will be rejected. Please use Reply-To address.

JP Roberts wrote:
> >> So, it's nothing a
> >> couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant.
>
> > At the time of VAG's coil pack problem, how many manufacturers
could
> > have supplied, at a one-week notice, a batch of one hundred of
those
> > specified coil packs?
> >
> You very well know it was not a one-week notice period, but at least
a
> couple of months that we're talking about, so yes, just about every
other
> manufacturer could have done so easily.

What's with the mixed top and bottom quoting?

Anyway, your claim is that they could go to some other supplier and
just get enough to cover all of them, including new manufacture, "in an
instant".

That suggestion is 100% false. There was *one* supplier for the
particular part, and VAG had to get a different manufacturer to supply
both the new and replacement parts.

Like I said, you can't wave a wand and have parts appear. They need to
made, shipped and stocked. Which takes time.

> > Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks,
we'll
> > fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no
matter
> > what sort of abuse or modification? OK, so that's the silly
extreme,
> > but there does have to be a line drawn somewhere. You happened to
fall
> > on the other side of it, and your dealership is taking a hard line
and
> > saying "tough luck."
>
> You know one of the virtues in life is that of showing some
flexibility?
> Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of
> warranty?

Again, why should they cover something out of warranty? Why bother
having a warranty period AT ALL? I know of plenty of folks that have
had things not recalled covered out of warranty. But those things were
generally small, and the cars were close to the end of warranty.

In addition, VAG did cover the electric window lift clip thing outside
of warranty for lots of cars that were FAR outside the period. Look it
up.

You keep avoiding the question - why have a warranty period at all, if
folks expect free repairs for the life of the car?


> > You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I
guess I
> > really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much
> > prattling on.
>
> You're right it's only your guess, which happens to be wrong.
>

You admitted that you weren't an automotive engineer. So, I guess some
pedant can hop up and down and say "I told you so," but that doesn't
make his training or experience any more relevant to the issue. So
you're an engineer. You're not an AUTOMOTIVE engineer, so you are not
qualified to judge the quality of the engineering from mere inspection.
In fact, I'm not sure a real automotive engineer is qualified to judge
from mere inspection. Real testing is required.

> >> Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no
> > denying
> >> the bad engineering.

> > Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is
> > meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who
have a
> > monetary interest in getting your car on a hoist is not evidence.
I
> > suppose in your courses of study in engineering you had to take
some
> > classes in real, hard sciences, right? You can tell the difference
> > between hard and anecdotal data, yes?
>
> Let me put it this way, when you see you're bleeding badly, do you
need to
> be a cardiovascular doctor to know if there's something seriously
wrong?

If the part is snapped clean off after driving out of the dealer's lot,
then your analogy would be apt. But it's still functional (or was,
until someone told you it needed to be replaced.) We do not know if
that assessment is accurate.

> Even a child would understand something like this.

Then why can't you?

> > All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your*
> > credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of
the
> > doubt to the customer, and assume the dealer is the problem. Now
I'm
> > beginning to get another idea in your specific case.
>
> I've long been questioning yours, as you fail to maintain a logical
argument
> by slightly diverting from the main topic all the time.

No, the main topic is your inability to accept that the warranty period
is over, and your parts aren't covered now. There's no recall, which
means you're going to have to pay to have them replaced. Life's hard.

Again, why should Audi cover something outside of warranty that's not a
recall?

And nice diversion from the question. Wasn't somebody just complaining
about slight diversion somewhere? LOL.

What's the name of this so-called dealer? Do they exist, even?

> >> I would dare to say that the good stories
> >> are the rare exceptions.
> >
> > Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad.
> >
> This thread, but just conduct a search in Audiworld.

Why? You were complaining about good stories being rare. They aren't.

> > LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive
lifetime
> > warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had
> > replaced under warranty.
> >
> Again, you're failing to remember that it's a case of
underengineering, so
> another reason why your own credibility is close to nil.

Your *claim* is that's it's underengineering, without any sort of
credentials or testing data. I have not forgotten that at all - but I
do recognize that it allows you to pursue the circular logic that it
should be replaced at no cost to you. Why? Because it's
underengineered! How do you know? Just by looking at it.

If my credibility with you is nil, so what? You're the one trying to
convince me that you are somehow correct, so my opinion must be
important for some reason.

E.P.