'89 525i timing belt woes

I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car
stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over,
and it just spins. It wont turn over. I suspected maybe the started
disengaged or maybe the coil wire got knocked out of place, but couldnt
see anything out of the ordinary. I had the car towed to BMW shop
that I have been to before, and the guy told me that my timing belt
is hosed. Not only that, but he guaranteed that all my valves were bent.
He said he would not take my $200 to fix the timing belt, because it
would be a waste of money. He estimates fixing the car will be
$1300-$1500. Not wanting to put that kind of money into the car, Im
somewhat at a loss, and feel the life of this car will soon be over and
stripped for parts. My questions are as follows:

1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves
being in tact?

2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to
replace the belt myself.

3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt, will I
have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or
is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft pulleys/sprockets or
whatever is used on this car.

4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off. A
mechanic told me I can inspect the rockers to see if they are moving oddly,
and or pull the plugs and force air into the chamber cylinder by cylinder and confirm
there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..)

5) How is the used 525 parts market? I know the doors can cost 3-400 easy used.
I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe less..

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated

-Rob

> wrote
>I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car
> stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over,
> and it just spins. It wont turn over. I suspected maybe the started
> disengaged or maybe the coil wire got knocked out of place, but couldnt
> see anything out of the ordinary. I had the car towed to BMW shop
> that I have been to before, and the guy told me that my timing belt
> is hosed. Not only that, but he guaranteed that all my valves were bent.
> He said he would not take my $200 to fix the timing belt, because it
> would be a waste of money. He estimates fixing the car will be
> $1300-$1500. Not wanting to put that kind of money into the car, Im
> somewhat at a loss, and feel the life of this car will soon be over and
> stripped for parts. My questions are as follows:
>
> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves
> being in tact?

Very small. Probably only a 5% chance.

> 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to
> replace the belt myself.

Not hard, but not easy.

> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt,
> will I
> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or
> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft
> pulleys/sprockets or
> whatever is used on this car.

You will have to rebuild (or replace) the head. It is also possible that
a piston (or pistons) have been damaged and need replacing - badness.

> 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off.
> A
> mechanic told me I can inspect the rockers to see if they are moving
> oddly,
> and or pull the plugs and force air into the chamber cylinder by cylinder
> and confirm
> there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..)

A leakdown test should show if a cylinder is toast due to bent valves.

> 5) How is the used 525 parts market? I know the doors can cost 3-400
> easy used.
> I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe
> less..

Although an '89 525i is not particularly valuable, it might be worth the
money
to repair it if the mileage is less than 150K-200K miles and the rest of the
car is in good shape.

Floyd

>>
>> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves
>> being in tact?

> Very small. Probably only a 5% chance.

Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and
not want my money to replace the belt.

>> 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to
>> replace the belt myself.

> Not hard, but not easy.

Any special tools needed? Im assuming the bulk of the job
is just removing everything to access the belt.


>> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt,
>> will I
>> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or
>> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft
>> pulleys/sprockets or
>> whatever is used on this car.

> You will have to rebuild (or replace) the head. It is also possible that
> a piston (or pistons) have been damaged and need replacing - badness.

Was this reply for if the valves *are* bent? I wouldnt think I need
to rebuild the head if there was no valve damage.

Thanks for the replies..

-Rob

>> 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off.
>> A
>> mechanic told me I can inspect the rockers to see if they are moving
>> oddly,
>> and or pull the plugs and force air into the chamber cylinder by cylinder
>> and confirm
>> there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..)

> A leakdown test should show if a cylinder is toast due to bent valves.

>> 5) How is the used 525 parts market? I know the doors can cost 3-400
>> easy used.
>> I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe
>> less..

> Although an '89 525i is not particularly valuable, it might be worth the
> money
> to repair it if the mileage is less than 150K-200K miles and the rest of the
> car is in good shape.

> Floyd

> wrote
>>> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the
>>> valves
>>> being in tact?
>
>> Very small. Probably only a 5% chance.
>
> Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and
> not want my money to replace the belt.

To rebuild/replace the head you have to replace the belt. There is no sense
in gambling on a 5% chance you won't have to replace the head.

> Was this reply for if the valves *are* bent? I wouldnt think I need
> to rebuild the head if there was no valve damage.

Yes. It's most likely (95%) that they are if the belt snapped. This
is true of all "interference" engines (BMW, Toyota, etc.)

Floyd

In article >,
> wrote:
> >> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the
> >> valves being in tact?

> > Very small. Probably only a 5% chance.

> Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and
> not want my money to replace the belt.

It's an 'interference' engine. This means if the engine is turned with the
camshaft stationary one or more valves will have been 'hit' by the
pistons. Now the valve can't just be pushed back up as the camshaft stops
this, so its only way out is to bend.

However, it's not beyond the capabilities of a decent DIYer to remove the
head and repair it, or simply replace the head with a secondhand one -
this engine is pretty common. And even Haynes gives detailed instructions.

With the head off and the cam removed, simply fill the ports with
kerosine. The damaged valves will leak, the others not.

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

> wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the
valves
> >> being in tact?
>
> > Very small. Probably only a 5% chance.
>
> Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and
> not want my money to replace the belt.

In all the years I've followed E30's, and all the lists I'm on, I've not yet
heard from anybody that broke a belt that didnt' have bent valves on an M20.
Your mechanic sounds as if he knows what he's talking about.

Good used heads are not that hard to get ahold of to make the swap
inexpensive -- rebuilds generally work out more expensive due to the labor
involved. Where do you live in the world? There may be parts nearby...

> Any special tools needed? Im assuming the bulk of the job
> is just removing everything to access the belt.

Waste of time if you don't attend the head. You can't remove and re-install
a timing belt, once it's on it stays on until you change it, so you'll be
buying a second belt. Firing the engine back up with a new belt and broken
valves may just damage some pistons even if they aren't damaged presently.

> >> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt,
> >> will I
> >> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged,
or
> >> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft
> >> pulleys/sprockets or
> >> whatever is used on this car.

If, iF, IF, If, by some miracle the valves are not bent, your cam lobes are
probably scarred, or the valve stem tips are mushroomed. The tolerances
will all be off. You should set them and do a compression test afterwards.

> > You will have to rebuild (or replace) the head. It is also possible
that
> > a piston (or pistons) have been damaged and need replacing - badness.
>
> Was this reply for if the valves *are* bent? I wouldnt think I need
> to rebuild the head if there was no valve damage.

When you have the head off you can inspect the pistons.

If you have damaged valves and you fire that engine, you're going to do more
damage. I think 5% chance of not bent is a very, very generous allowance.

-Russ.

When was the last time that the timing belt was replaced on the car?

Also, I recall reading in the news group that BMW used timing chains, not
belts. Obviously some Bimmers have belts, as your tale of woe proves, but
which do not?

- GRL

> wrote in message ...
> I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car
> stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over,
> and it just spins. It wont turn over. I suspected maybe the started
> disengaged or maybe the coil wire got knocked out of place, but couldnt
> see anything out of the ordinary. I had the car towed to BMW shop
> that I have been to before, and the guy told me that my timing belt
> is hosed. Not only that, but he guaranteed that all my valves were bent.
> He said he would not take my $200 to fix the timing belt, because it
> would be a waste of money. He estimates fixing the car will be
> $1300-$1500. Not wanting to put that kind of money into the car, Im
> somewhat at a loss, and feel the life of this car will soon be over and
> stripped for parts. My questions are as follows:
>
> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves
> being in tact?
>
> 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to
> replace the belt myself.
>
> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt,
will I
> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or
> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft
pulleys/sprockets or
> whatever is used on this car.
>
> 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off.
A
> mechanic told me I can inspect the rockers to see if they are moving
oddly,
> and or pull the plugs and force air into the chamber cylinder by cylinder
and confirm
> there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..)
>
> 5) How is the used 525 parts market? I know the doors can cost 3-400
easy used.
> I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe
less..
>
> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated
>
> -Rob
>
>

In article >,
GRL > wrote:
> Also, I recall reading in the news group that BMW used timing chains, not
> belts. Obviously some Bimmers have belts, as your tale of woe proves, but
> which do not?

The change came in with the twin cam 24 valve engines - round about '91.

--
*Always drink upstream from the herd *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

GRL > wrote:
> When was the last time that the timing belt was replaced on the car?

Have no idea. I inherited the car from my wife, and AFAIK, it was
never replaced. (I guess our bad for not doing preventative maint).

-Rob

> Also, I recall reading in the news group that BMW used timing chains, not
> belts. Obviously some Bimmers have belts, as your tale of woe proves, but
> which do not?

> - GRL

> > wrote in message ...
>> I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car
>> stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over,
>> and it just spins. It wont turn over. I suspected maybe the started
>> disengaged or maybe the coil wire got knocked out of place, but couldnt
>> see anything out of the ordinary. I had the car towed to BMW shop
>> that I have been to before, and the guy told me that my timing belt
>> is hosed. Not only that, but he guaranteed that all my valves were bent.
>> He said he would not take my $200 to fix the timing belt, because it
>> would be a waste of money. He estimates fixing the car will be
>> $1300-$1500. Not wanting to put that kind of money into the car, Im
>> somewhat at a loss, and feel the life of this car will soon be over and
>> stripped for parts. My questions are as follows:
>>
>> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves
>> being in tact?
>>
>> 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to
>> replace the belt myself.
>>
>> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt,
> will I
>> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or
>> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft
> pulleys/sprockets or
>> whatever is used on this car.
>>
>> 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off.
> A
>> mechanic told me I can inspect the rockers to see if they are moving
> oddly,
>> and or pull the plugs and force air into the chamber cylinder by cylinder
> and confirm
>> there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..)
>>
>> 5) How is the used 525 parts market? I know the doors can cost 3-400
> easy used.
>> I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe
> less..
>>
>> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>

Now i know for a fact, that any bmw engine cranked on the starter
with broken/bent valves floating around (due to broken belts) will
sound way different to normal.
You WILL feel vibrations through the car, especially if a snapped valve
or three is trying to punch through the combustion chambers
into the water jacket.

You WILL also hear the speed of the starter varying, maybe briefly stalling
at times.

I would obtain a second opinion ... its WAY to easy for a typical garage
(who are out to make money to survive) to say "oh broken this, snapped that,
£££££s please sir" when all that might be wrong is a failed fuel pump relay,
maybe the pump itself .... maybe you have an aftermarket immobiliser
installed by a "registered" firm who employ kids straight from school ...
and
show them how to build unreliability in. (The use of scotchblock connectors
is an example).

So .. get a second opinion.

--
Regards....
Steve

(Just stripped a m20 head in 25 minutes flat ... yea i'm quick!!).



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