Pikey tyres

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 06:40:44 +0100, Catman
> wrote:

>You may chose to endure it to get the increased traction in wet weather
>on the front tyres. Or you may not. Each to their own.

Do you get "increased traction" though? As someone staying in one of
the wettest locations in the UK, I have had more than enough
experience of rain! The Met Office even think it's interesting enough
to have a weather station here.

I've found that tyre wear is a bit like swimming..once you're out of
your depth, it doesn't matter how far out of your depth you are. Tyres
either work in the wet or they don't (simplistic, but hey..that's my
findings). Once they don't have enough tread to work in typical road
water, it doesn't matter where you put them on the car they still
don't disperse that water decently. IME this point is about 3mm.

This experience is from my 156 days (things are different now). I used
an uphill corner on the M8 as a tyre test. On a rainy day (plenty to
choose from) if I could start to lose front wheel traction
accelerating at 70mph - the tyres were shot for reliable wet use. This
usually was the 3mm warning.

Below 3mm, I found that tyres lose their wet capabilities quite
rapidly. A new tyre will have about 8mm of tread. For most typical
on-road puddles and water, you don't *need* all 8mm to disperse all
the water. Something better than 3mm will usually do it. This is how I
work it - have enough tread to displace the water all round so wet
grip isn't noticeably affected by tyre positions. Then I can have the
new tyres on the back without worrying about wet traction on the
fronts.

I suspect that some people (not necessarily those present here)
compare useless near-slicks to brand new tyres (where there will be an
extreme difference in both wet and dry capabilities and handling) then
slot those observations in to counter the manufacturers advice.

The above is just my experience of a 156 2.4JTD for over 8 years on
Continental Sport Contact 2 tyres in my wet location. Any variations
may produce other conclusions.

Oddly enough, I was just thinking..what if the above experience is
utter ******** so I went Googling and (unknown to me until right now)
ROSPA have kindly graphed my experience - so that's two of us with the
same theory now... Ok they imply 4mm before the performance drop off
but my testing isn't as rigorous! They do say to change tyres at 3mm
though.

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advi...read_depth.htm

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

Zathras wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 06:40:44 +0100, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> You may chose to endure it to get the increased traction in wet weather
>> on the front tyres. Or you may not. Each to their own.
>
> Do you get "increased traction" though? As someone staying in one of
> the wettest locations in the UK, I have had more than enough
> experience of rain! The Met Office even think it's interesting enough
> to have a weather station here.

<snip all good stuff>

>
> http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advi...read_depth.htm
>

But now we're in a circular argument. Since it makes little difference
how much tread you have between 8mm and 3mm (from your observation) even
in the wet, exactly how much does this 'balance of traction' change when
you put new tyres on?

Granted, if you put the full 8mm on the back it *should* be able to
handle deeper / bigger / whatever puddles than the front before it
fails, but in 'normal'[1] conditions, I don't think it's gonna make a
blind bit of difference.

[1] Where you're not constantly running in standing water. This may be
difficult in your location




--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> J.D. wrote:
>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> J.D. wrote:
>>>> "SteveH" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> J.D. > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "R C Nesbit" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> The 156 was in need of a pair of front tyres, but since my
>>>>>>> financial partners pulled out in June I am flat broke most
>>>>>>> of the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I called in to The Tyre Shop, purveyors of cheap rubber
>>>>>>> to the denizens of Ollerton (ex mining village) and bought
>>>>>>> a pair of economy branded fronts for the princely sum of
>>>>>>> £89 - the pair, balanced and fitted!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was somewhat wary, but they drove, tracked and sounded
>>>>>>> fine, and as luck would have it I've just driven 20 miles
>>>>>>> through heavy rain and they are OK in the wet as well!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hallo,
>>>>>> Typical mistake!
>>>>>> New tyres should go on the rear. Not front!
>>>>> <passes round popcorn>
>>>>>
>>>>> I always put new tyres on the driven wheels.
>>>> Then you are always wrong.
>>>> Look at this:
>>>> http://www.michelin.co.uk/michelinuk...314172074.html
>>>> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=52
>>>> http://www.etyres.co.uk/flashmovies/...ear-etyres.htm
>>>> http://www.celtictyres.co.uk/front-rear.php
>>> Wouldn't go as far as wrong. The important thing here is:
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> Numerous tests have shown that it is easier to control the front wheels
>>> than those at the rear.
>>> <quote>
>>>
>>> But that depends entirely on how good a driver you are.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, but now you are wrong. It is not the question who is better
>> driver.
>> Schumacher is better driver than I am but it doesn't mean that he would
>> put new tyres in front. Or put it in this way: why would he do that?
>
> Because it's a rather simplistic view.
>
> Tell you what, you do it your way, and I'll keep being 'wrong'. How's
> that.
>

That's fine mainly if you are driving alone in your yard :-)
On the road are my children, or yours, and there is no reason
for gambling just to show driving skills. That's all about that from me.

J.D. wrote:
> "Catman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> J.D. wrote:
>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> J.D. wrote:
>>>>> "SteveH" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> J.D. > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "R C Nesbit" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The 156 was in need of a pair of front tyres, but since my
>>>>>>>> financial partners pulled out in June I am flat broke most
>>>>>>>> of the time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I called in to The Tyre Shop, purveyors of cheap rubber
>>>>>>>> to the denizens of Ollerton (ex mining village) and bought
>>>>>>>> a pair of economy branded fronts for the princely sum of
>>>>>>>> £89 - the pair, balanced and fitted!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was somewhat wary, but they drove, tracked and sounded
>>>>>>>> fine, and as luck would have it I've just driven 20 miles
>>>>>>>> through heavy rain and they are OK in the wet as well!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hallo,
>>>>>>> Typical mistake!
>>>>>>> New tyres should go on the rear. Not front!
>>>>>> <passes round popcorn>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always put new tyres on the driven wheels.
>>>>> Then you are always wrong.
>>>>> Look at this:
>>>>> http://www.michelin.co.uk/michelinuk...314172074.html
>>>>> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=52
>>>>> http://www.etyres.co.uk/flashmovies/...ear-etyres.htm
>>>>> http://www.celtictyres.co.uk/front-rear.php
>>>> Wouldn't go as far as wrong. The important thing here is:
>>>>
>>>> <quote>
>>>> Numerous tests have shown that it is easier to control the front wheels
>>>> than those at the rear.
>>>> <quote>
>>>>
>>>> But that depends entirely on how good a driver you are.
>>>>
>>> Sorry, but now you are wrong. It is not the question who is better
>>> driver.
>>> Schumacher is better driver than I am but it doesn't mean that he would
>>> put new tyres in front. Or put it in this way: why would he do that?
>> Because it's a rather simplistic view.
>>
>> Tell you what, you do it your way, and I'll keep being 'wrong'. How's
>> that.
>>
>
> That's fine mainly if you are driving alone in your yard :-)
> On the road are my children, or yours, and there is no reason
> for gambling just to show driving skills.

Of course there are (children that is), and equally I am not going to
show off any kind of skill.

I am, however, not going to stop applying critical faculties simply
because Michelin et al. wish to simplify things to the level of the
lowest common denominator.




--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:47:45 +0100, Catman
> wrote:

>But now we're in a circular argument.

You mean a multiple argument? There are different issues over dry and
wet handling and whether you've lost grip or not or are just about to,
in varying conditions. People (including me) bounce round all of them
and seeing the wood from the trees can be tricky.

>Since it makes little difference

Ah..yes but when things get critical, small differences might become
more significant.

>how much tread you have between 8mm and 3mm (from your observation) even
>in the wet, exactly how much does this 'balance of traction' change when
>you put new tyres on?

Hmmm..good point. I used "traction balance" because Michelin used it
to describe the different feeling you get after putting new tyres on
the front. Perhaps that's because I used to change my fronts when they
were a bit bald and the difference was extreme. I'm reaching the
limits of my expertise now. You'd probably have to consult a real
expert to get clarity!!

>Granted, if you put the full 8mm on the back it *should* be able to
>handle deeper / bigger / whatever puddles than the front before it
>fails, but in 'normal'[1] conditions, I don't think it's gonna make a
>blind bit of difference.

From the ROSPA findings this must be the case. I can only assume the
tyre manufacturers are covering the situation when people have tyres
below 3mm which is quite common in my personal experience! However,
this is my opinion as I am in no position to expand on the tyre
manufacturers advice.

>[1] Where you're not constantly running in standing water. This may be
>difficult in your location

Not the last few weeks but August was total ****. I think the extreme
wetness to be found in these parts helped my Alfa to rust more than I
had expected and hoped for. :-(

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

Zathras wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:47:45 +0100, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> But now we're in a circular argument.
>
> You mean a multiple argument? There are different issues over dry and
> wet handling and whether you've lost grip or not or are just about to,
> in varying conditions. People (including me) bounce round all of them
> and seeing the wood from the trees can be tricky.

Hence the argument 'it's harder to control a rear wheel skid' is, at
best, simplistic.
>
>> Since it makes little difference
>
> Ah..yes but when things get critical, small differences might become
> more significant.

They might. I would hazard that at the tipping point of criticality that
the *single* *most* *important* thing is driver skill.
ICBW

>
>> how much tread you have between 8mm and 3mm (from your observation) even
>> in the wet, exactly how much does this 'balance of traction' change when
>> you put new tyres on?
>
> Hmmm..good point. I used "traction balance" because Michelin used it
> to describe the different feeling you get after putting new tyres on
> the front. Perhaps that's because I used to change my fronts when they
> were a bit bald and the difference was extreme. I'm reaching the
> limits of my expertise now. You'd probably have to consult a real
> expert to get clarity!!

Unless car tyres have dual compounds in them (which I have no idea) and
you have worn through the outer, grippy compound, I'm really struggling
to work out why you should feel anything at all. AFAICT you are only
going to lose grip in the wet when you wear out the tread. In the dry,
it should be the same.

Happy to have someone explain why this is wrong, though.

I suspect the perception of change in balance is either due to
1) Psychology i.e. you think you should feel a change, so we do.
2) The sharpness of the tread edges / release compound / not fully
curing of the tyre etc etc. In short, because the tyre is *new*. Brand
new, and this stops happening within n miles.
3) Marketing

It's not like bike tyres which actually change shape and make the bike
harder to tip in as they wear out.

>
>> Granted, if you put the full 8mm on the back it *should* be able to
>> handle deeper / bigger / whatever puddles than the front before it
>> fails, but in 'normal'[1] conditions, I don't think it's gonna make a
>> blind bit of difference.
>
> From the ROSPA findings this must be the case. I can only assume the
> tyre manufacturers are covering the situation when people have tyres
> below 3mm which is quite common in my personal experience! However,
> this is my opinion as I am in no position to expand on the tyre
> manufacturers advice.

Could well be. Perhaps it should be:

'Since most people think they can feel a difference in traction balance,
have done no training since they passed their test and are probably
using tyres with < 3mm tread on them, we recommend that the new tyres
are put on the rear'



Doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

>
>> [1] Where you're not constantly running in standing water. This may be
>> difficult in your location
>
> Not the last few weeks but August was total ****. I think the extreme
> wetness to be found in these parts helped my Alfa to rust more than I
> had expected and hoped for. :-(


Downer. I thought the 156s were all galvanized. Was it shunted and repaired?


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Catman spoke:
> I suspect the perception of change in balance is either due to
> 1) Psychology i.e. you think you should feel a change, so we do.
> 2) The sharpness of the tread edges / release compound / not fully
> curing of the tyre etc etc. In short, because the tyre is *new*. Brand
> new, and this stops happening within n miles.
> 3) Marketing

I suspect a mix of 1) and 2)

When I put the cheapos on the 156 I was wary - first opportunity I
deliberately did a wheel spin, and very hard braking. Cornering I was
'cautious' about and the car definitely felt different, but this was with
new tread replacing almost illegal tread.

Within a day or so things calmed down and it now feels sharper handling
than it did with the old rubber on.

--
Rob Pearson
156 1.9jtd sportwagon (now)
164 V6 Lusso (gone)

Catman > wrote:

> > Not the last few weeks but August was total ****. I think the extreme
> > wetness to be found in these parts helped my Alfa to rust more than I
> > had expected and hoped for. :-(
>
>
> Downer. I thought the 156s were all galvanized. Was it shunted and repaired?

I think there have been issues around front floorpans.

I can only speculate, but suggest that this may be caused by the habit
156s have for bottoming out and catching on speed humps.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed - Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso -
Ducati 750SS - BMW R100RT - Toyota Prius T-Spirit

SteveH wrote:
> Catman > wrote:
>
>>> Not the last few weeks but August was total ****. I think the extreme
>>> wetness to be found in these parts helped my Alfa to rust more than I
>>> had expected and hoped for. :-(
>>
>> Downer. I thought the 156s were all galvanized. Was it shunted and repaired?
>
> I think there have been issues around front floorpans.
>
> I can only speculate, but suggest that this may be caused by the habit
> 156s have for bottoming out and catching on speed humps.

Hmm. Could be. There's a bit in the AROC mag by Jamie about underseal
not being good enough.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

R C Nesbit wrote:
> Catman spoke:
>> I suspect the perception of change in balance is either due to
>> 1) Psychology i.e. you think you should feel a change, so we do.
>> 2) The sharpness of the tread edges / release compound / not fully
>> curing of the tyre etc etc. In short, because the tyre is *new*. Brand
>> new, and this stops happening within n miles.
>> 3) Marketing
>
> I suspect a mix of 1) and 2)
>
> When I put the cheapos on the 156 I was wary - first opportunity I
> deliberately did a wheel spin, and very hard braking.

Throwing cheap tyres into the mix should serve to complicate the
discussion

> Cornering I was
> 'cautious' about and the car definitely felt different, but this was with
> new tread replacing almost illegal tread.
>
> Within a day or so things calmed down and it now feels sharper handling
> than it did with the old rubber on.

I'm not overly surprised. Personally I tend to stick with P6000s cos I
can get them, and I know they do good. Bit like Avons on the Sprint IYSWIM.


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk