3 Questions in 1 post...

Q1 - MAFs:
I can relate to the "scalded cat / bus" post the other day and I have read
the "dirty or faulty MAF" answer to so many similar posts that I presume
this is also my problem, but not being particularly mechanically
confident...

MAF = Mass Air Flow. Clearly the engine needs the right amount of air to go
with the petrol, so a sensor is used to detect/control it. Right?

Does the following sound like a duff / dirty MAF:

156 2.0JTS. At low revs - around 2000, when I accellerate not necessarily
hard, there is sometimes a loss in engine power as if the fuel has been cut
off for a half second. When I back off on the power and then re-apply it
gently, the power comes back on as normal. The computer then complains about
engine control failure - go to dealer, but I'm used to this message now and
no longer panic! Doesn't happen when revs are over about 3000.

Are MAFs easy to locate and clean or perhaps cheap/easy to replace?


Q2 - Brakes:
To upgrade the brakes on my 156, is it a simple matter of installing larger,
perhaps ventillated discs and appropriate pads, or is there much more to it?


Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not? Would
it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head etc?

What impact on insurance - any experience out there?


Thanks again guys,
GT

GT wrote:
> Q1 - MAFs:
> I can relate to the "scalded cat / bus" post the other day and I have read
> the "dirty or faulty MAF" answer to so many similar posts that I presume
> this is also my problem, but not being particularly mechanically
> confident...
>
> MAF = Mass Air Flow. Clearly the engine needs the right amount of air to go
> with the petrol, so a sensor is used to detect/control it. Right?

Wrong way round. It needs the correct amount of petrol to match the
amount of air that the engine is drawing in. The MAF measures the mass
of the incoming air, and the ECU works out how long to keep the
injectors open to deliver the correct amount of fuel to provide the
correct air / fuel mix.
>
> Does the following sound like a duff / dirty MAF:
>
> 156 2.0JTS. At low revs - around 2000, when I accellerate not necessarily
> hard, there is sometimes a loss in engine power as if the fuel has been cut
> off for a half second. When I back off on the power and then re-apply it
> gently, the power comes back on as normal. The computer then complains about
> engine control failure - go to dealer, but I'm used to this message now and
> no longer panic! Doesn't happen when revs are over about 3000.

Sounds more like throttle sensor failure to me. Does the JTS use drive
by wire throttle I wonder? I've not heard of MAF failure causing ECU
lights. I know from experience that TPS failure can.
>
> Are MAFs easy to locate and clean or perhaps cheap/easy to replace?

Yes and moderately. Best go for an original not a cheapo ebay knock off.
But I'm pretty damned sure that if your MAF is bust, it's not your main
issue.

>
>
> Q2 - Brakes:
> To upgrade the brakes on my 156, is it a simple matter of installing larger,
> perhaps ventillated discs and appropriate pads, or is there much more to it?


Define 'upgrade'. What problem are you getting? Certain values of larger
won't fit. ICBW as well, but the pad area is rather more important than
the disc, so you'd need bigger / more calipers as well.

You could fit some 'better' pads (EBC green stuff for example) but they
can be exciting when cold, and won't solve, again for example a spongey
pedal or a leaking servo. Need more symptoms really.
>
>
> Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
> Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not? Would
> it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head etc?

Fitting a turbo / super to virtually any engine is *very* expensive.
Last time one was dangled in front of my 116 it was IRO £1100 *just for
the turbo*

And the 12V V6 is pretty bomb proof, it would only have needed inlet
piping, exhaust piping and a new ECU.

I really doubt that a JTS would need less than pistons, crank, cons, ECU
and the plumbing.

Get a bigger engined car. Or are you, IIRC, in Holland?


>
> What impact on insurance - any experience out there?

Hideous




>
>
> Thanks again guys,
> GT
>
>


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> GT wrote:
>> Q1 - MAFs:
>> I can relate to the "scalded cat / bus" post the other day and I have
>> read the "dirty or faulty MAF" answer to so many similar posts that I
>> presume this is also my problem, but not being particularly mechanically
>> confident...
>>
>> MAF = Mass Air Flow. Clearly the engine needs the right amount of air to
>> go with the petrol, so a sensor is used to detect/control it. Right?
>
> Wrong way round. It needs the correct amount of petrol to match the amount
> of air that the engine is drawing in. The MAF measures the mass of the
> incoming air, and the ECU works out how long to keep the injectors open to
> deliver the correct amount of fuel to provide the correct air / fuel mix.
>>
>> Does the following sound like a duff / dirty MAF:
>>
>> 156 2.0JTS. At low revs - around 2000, when I accellerate not necessarily
>> hard, there is sometimes a loss in engine power as if the fuel has been
>> cut off for a half second. When I back off on the power and then re-apply
>> it gently, the power comes back on as normal. The computer then complains
>> about engine control failure - go to dealer, but I'm used to this message
>> now and no longer panic! Doesn't happen when revs are over about 3000.
>
> Sounds more like throttle sensor failure to me. Does the JTS use drive by
> wire throttle I wonder? I've not heard of MAF failure causing ECU lights.
> I know from experience that TPS failure can.

It is a drive by wire throttle, so that makes sense. Why would this only
happen at low revs tho? Is there some way of testing / resetting the
throttle sensor without plugging the car into a laptop. I have the PC
knowhow, but no cables or diag software. Incidentally, where is the
connector for plugging into diag software - in the cabin somewhere I
presume?

>> Are MAFs easy to locate and clean or perhaps cheap/easy to replace?
>
> Yes and moderately. Best go for an original not a cheapo ebay knock off.
> But I'm pretty damned sure that if your MAF is bust, it's not your main
> issue.
>
>>
>>
>> Q2 - Brakes:
>> To upgrade the brakes on my 156, is it a simple matter of installing
>> larger, perhaps ventillated discs and appropriate pads, or is there much
>> more to it?
>
> Define 'upgrade'. What problem are you getting? Certain values of larger
> won't fit. ICBW as well, but the pad area is rather more important than
> the disc, so you'd need bigger / more calipers as well.

My question about brakes was for 2 reasons. Firstly, the brakes are a little
spongey, but I they seem to stop the car OK. Sounds like a contradiction,
but they are nowhere near as sharp as SHMBOs little fiesta. I realise it is
a smaller, lighter car, but the brakes on that feel much tighter and sharper
than mine. Secondly, if I upgrade the power somehow, then I thought that
better brakes would be advisable.

However, by the sounds of it, I won't be upgrading the power so perhaps I'll
just leave well alone!

Oh and I'm in Fife by the way. I know someone in here is Dutch, but I can't
remember who!

Thanks for the advice.

> You could fit some 'better' pads (EBC green stuff for example) but they
> can be exciting when cold, and won't solve, again for example a spongey
> pedal or a leaking servo. Need more symptoms really.
>>
>>
>> Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
>> Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not?
>> Would it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head
>> etc?
>
> Fitting a turbo / super to virtually any engine is *very* expensive. Last
> time one was dangled in front of my 116 it was IRO £1100 *just for the
> turbo*
>
> And the 12V V6 is pretty bomb proof, it would only have needed inlet
> piping, exhaust piping and a new ECU.
>
> I really doubt that a JTS would need less than pistons, crank, cons, ECU
> and the plumbing.
>
> Get a bigger engined car. Or are you, IIRC, in Holland?
>
>
>>
>> What impact on insurance - any experience out there?
>
> Hideous
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again guys,
>> GT
>
>
> --
> Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
> Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
> 116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
> Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
> www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

GT wrote:
<snip>
>
> It is a drive by wire throttle, so that makes sense. Why would this only
> happen at low revs tho?

It's probably not. It just feels like it cos (AIUI) it's happening at
low throttle. At higher revs the effect may not be so pronounced.

>Is there some way of testing / resetting the
> throttle sensor without plugging the car into a laptop. I have the PC
> knowhow, but no cables or diag software. Incidentally, where is the
> connector for plugging into diag software - in the cabin somewhere I
> presume?

My socket is in the fusebox. The software is pretty readily available
together with cables. IIRC SteveH bought some on ebay.

OTOH I think it's probably as simple as: disconnect, apply ohm meter,
operate sensor and observe wildly fluctuating readings. At least on the
V6 (again AIUI) it's just a potentiometer.


>>> Are MAFs easy to locate and clean or perhaps cheap/easy to replace?
>> Yes and moderately. Best go for an original not a cheapo ebay knock off.
>> But I'm pretty damned sure that if your MAF is bust, it's not your main
>> issue.
>>
>>>
>>> Q2 - Brakes:
>>> To upgrade the brakes on my 156, is it a simple matter of installing
>>> larger, perhaps ventillated discs and appropriate pads, or is there much
>>> more to it?
>> Define 'upgrade'. What problem are you getting? Certain values of larger
>> won't fit. ICBW as well, but the pad area is rather more important than
>> the disc, so you'd need bigger / more calipers as well.
>
> My question about brakes was for 2 reasons. Firstly, the brakes are a little
> spongey, but I they seem to stop the car OK. Sounds like a contradiction,
> but they are nowhere near as sharp as SHMBOs little fiesta.


I know exactly what you mean. The 116 has an intentionally long pedal
travel that was designed to allow accurate moderation of braking force.
Doesn't mean that when you get into it it's not scary at first

I'd start with the basics. New pads, check the discs are OK, new fluid.

Green stuff pads are good, but they do need to be warmer than 'normal'
pads. I had an interesting experience having just done a couple of
hundred miles in the 116 in the rain in a cold Ocotber, on the motorway.
Handn't braked at all, and they were cold and wet.

Pulled off onto slip road.

Approaching round about...

nothing.....

nothing.....

nothing...

face <> windscreen interface as they finally got hot and bit


> I realise it is
> a smaller, lighter car, but the brakes on that feel much tighter and sharper
> than mine. Secondly, if I upgrade the power somehow, then I thought that
> better brakes would be advisable.
>

IME of modern small cars the brakes are barely short of vicious.

> However, by the sounds of it, I won't be upgrading the power so perhaps I'll
> just leave well alone!
>
> Oh and I'm in Fife by the way. I know someone in here is Dutch, but I can't
> remember who!

Nor can I, but IIRC there is a *HYUUUUUGE* tax on any engine >
2.something liters. Which is why they got a turbo 2.5 V6 or summat.

>
> Thanks for the advice.

No problem, but it's worth exactly what you paid for it



--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

GT > wrote:

> Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
> Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not? Would
> it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head etc?

It would be cheaper to sell it and buy a GTA.

JTS lumps were a massive step backwards over the old TSparks in many
ways, so they're not an engine I'd choose to start with anyway.

--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed - Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso -
Ducati 750SS - BMW R100RT - Toyota Prius T-Spirit

"SteveH" > wrote in message
. ..
> GT > wrote:
>
>> Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
>> Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not?
>> Would
>> it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head etc?
>
> It would be cheaper to sell it and buy a GTA.
>
> JTS lumps were a massive step backwards over the old TSparks in many
> ways, so they're not an engine I'd choose to start with anyway.

Statistics disagree with that - the 2.0 JTS has 10% more power and is more
fuel efficient then the 2.0TS. Besides they have the words "Jet Thrust" in
the name, therefore they must be better!

Why do you say they are a step backward?

europe.news.astraweb.com <GT> wrote:

> "SteveH" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > GT > wrote:
> >
> >> Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
> >> Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not?
> >> Would
> >> it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head etc?
> >
> > It would be cheaper to sell it and buy a GTA.
> >
> > JTS lumps were a massive step backwards over the old TSparks in many
> > ways, so they're not an engine I'd choose to start with anyway.
>
> Statistics disagree with that - the 2.0 JTS has 10% more power and is more
> fuel efficient then the 2.0TS. Besides they have the words "Jet Thrust" in
> the name, therefore they must be better!
>
> Why do you say they are a step backward?

Very few JTS engines are delivering the full 165bhp they should be
delivering - and finding the elusive missing bhp is proving to be a big
issue.

They are also, allegedly more unreliable than the TSpark.

Problems include incorrectly profiled cams, unsuitable fuel maps and
massive coking of the cylinder head - caused by the above. There have
also been several reports of problems with the injectors.

Most JTS engines that have been dyno tested are putting out less than
150bhp, and in some cases as little as 125bhp.

--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed - Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso -
Ducati 750SS - BMW R100RT - Toyota Prius T-Spirit

"SteveH" > wrote in message
. ..
> europe.news.astraweb.com <GT> wrote:
>
>> "SteveH" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> > GT > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Q3 - Turbo / Supercharger:
>> >> Installing a turbo or supercharger to a 156 2.0JTS: expensive or not?
>> >> Would
>> >> it require new, stronger parts in the engine - block/pistons/head etc?
>> >
>> > It would be cheaper to sell it and buy a GTA.
>> >
>> > JTS lumps were a massive step backwards over the old TSparks in many
>> > ways, so they're not an engine I'd choose to start with anyway.
>>
>> Statistics disagree with that - the 2.0 JTS has 10% more power and is
>> more
>> fuel efficient then the 2.0TS. Besides they have the words "Jet Thrust"
>> in
>> the name, therefore they must be better!
>>
>> Why do you say they are a step backward?
>
> Very few JTS engines are delivering the full 165bhp they should be
> delivering - and finding the elusive missing bhp is proving to be a big
> issue.
>
> They are also, allegedly more unreliable than the TSpark.
>
> Problems include incorrectly profiled cams, unsuitable fuel maps and
> massive coking of the cylinder head - caused by the above. There have
> also been several reports of problems with the injectors.
>
> Most JTS engines that have been dyno tested are putting out less than
> 150bhp, and in some cases as little as 125bhp.

That sounds bad. Mine has behaved perfectly barring a knock sensor problem
in the first 3 weeks of life.

No idea what bhp its putting out tho! I know all cars lose power over time
and its 7 years old now and still going strong. The original exhaust is
ready to fall off, but nothing else is wrong!

"GT" > wrote in message
...
> No idea what bhp its putting out tho! I know all cars lose power over time
> and its 7 years old now and still going strong. The original exhaust is
> ready to fall off, but nothing else is wrong!

That's how Alfas maintain the power:weight ratio; as the engine gets tired
more bits of the car fall off.

Certainly this was true for our '82 Alfasud 1.5Ti


--
Dave [ '68 1750 GT Veloce ]
ex Motorcycle Maintenance Workshop
http://tinyurl.com/4mhaw

Dave Emerson wrote:
> "GT" > wrote in message
> ...
>> No idea what bhp its putting out tho! I know all cars lose power over time
>> and its 7 years old now and still going strong. The original exhaust is
>> ready to fall off, but nothing else is wrong!
>
> That's how Alfas maintain the power:weight ratio; as the engine gets tired
> more bits of the car fall off.
>
> Certainly this was true for our '82 Alfasud 1.5Ti
>
>

Power : weight on the 116 has tended towards infinity in the past

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk