'86 5K TQ don't want to start after air and fuel filter change

> Sounds like you have a problem with the coating on the inside of the fuel tank falling off and clogging the fuel pump's intake
> screen. Common problem for pre '90 T44s
>
> Check history on Audiworld T44 forum for correction:
> http://forums.audiworld.com/v8/
>
> The recommended Audi fix is to cut off the intake screen from the fuel pump and then replace the fuel filter.

Yeh, I was thinking of flushing the tank (with my mechanic friend's help of course). Is there only one filter?

Also, what could possibly go wrong with a fuel accumulator? Isn't that a relatively simple part?

Thank you Tony for your help!

cp

Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting the screen
from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done the crud will be trapped by
the fuel filter in engine compartment (on Passenger side fender). You will need
to change the filter more often as a result.

If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to crank the
starter for a longer time when starting to build pressure. I am not sure but if
the accumulator is completely non-functional you may have a no-start condition
result.

May want to check history at Audiworld on that.

Good luck.

cp wrote:
>>Sounds like you have a problem with the coating on the inside of the fuel tank falling off and clogging the fuel pump's intake
>>screen. Common problem for pre '90 T44s
>>
>>Check history on Audiworld T44 forum for correction:
>>http://forums.audiworld.com/v8/
>>
>>The recommended Audi fix is to cut off the intake screen from the fuel pump and then replace the fuel filter.
>
>
> Yeh, I was thinking of flushing the tank (with my mechanic friend's help of course). Is there only one filter?
>
> Also, what could possibly go wrong with a fuel accumulator? Isn't that a relatively simple part?
>
> Thank you Tony for your help!
>
> cp
>
>

> Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting the screen from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done
> the crud will be trapped by the fuel filter in engine compartment (on Passenger side fender). You will need to change the filter
> more often as a result.

Yeh, took care of that.

> If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to crank the starter for a longer time when starting to build
> pressure. I am not sure but if the accumulator is completely non-functional you may have a no-start condition result.

Well, we bypassed the fuel accumulator and haven't noticed anything different, BUT the problem is SOLVED, turns out the hose from
the air cleaner to the intake was severed, now there's no problem at all. It starts fine any time and idles fine. Whew! Glad I
didn't have to replace anything, what a learning experience, I think I'll understand the whole fuel process soon! :-)

cp

cp,
Good to hear that you solved the problem. You might want to check all the
underhood hoses for leaks as well - heat and rubber don't really get along
too well. One method for checking for leaks is to make a cap for the
intake, and then get a regulator and supply compressed air at a pressure at
or slightly below the max boost pressure the ECU transducer will allow (say,
at 1.6 bar - sorry for the units) and then listen for leaks - or have some
real fun, and dump a bucket of soapy water on the engine compartment and
look for bubbles - kids enjoy this method and it makes car diagnosis fun for
the whole family ;-)
The accumulator is, in essence, a pressure tank for the fuel system, you may
liken it to a device that deals with water hammer in pipes. Although I have
never dissected one, I did replace the one in my 5ktq once and it sounds
like there's a large spring in there. My guess is that it cushions the pump
from the rapid changes in fuel delivery. I do believe that the check valve
Tony is referring to is mounted just above the pump in the tank.
Good luck on understanding the fuel process.....if you really get into it,
you'll realize why some have ditched the whole CIS stuff and gone with
things like 034EFI and such.
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ
1980 Audi 5k
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)

"cp" > wrote in message news:ag2Ve.236201$HI.1915@edtnps84...
> > Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting the
screen from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done
> > the crud will be trapped by the fuel filter in engine compartment (on
Passenger side fender). You will need to change the filter
> > more often as a result.
>
> Yeh, took care of that.
>
> > If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to crank
the starter for a longer time when starting to build
> > pressure. I am not sure but if the accumulator is completely
non-functional you may have a no-start condition result.
>
> Well, we bypassed the fuel accumulator and haven't noticed anything
different, BUT the problem is SOLVED, turns out the hose from
> the air cleaner to the intake was severed, now there's no problem at all.
It starts fine any time and idles fine. Whew! Glad I
> didn't have to replace anything, what a learning experience, I think I'll
understand the whole fuel process soon! :-)
>
> cp
>
>

cp,
I just realized that that pressure is absolute - so if you have a regulator
with a gauge, then you'd set the pressure at 0.6 bar on the gauge (~ 1.6 bar
on the dash)
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ
1980 Audi 5k
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)

"Steve Sears" > wrote in message
.. .
> cp,
> Good to hear that you solved the problem. You might want to check all the
> underhood hoses for leaks as well - heat and rubber don't really get along
> too well. One method for checking for leaks is to make a cap for the
> intake, and then get a regulator and supply compressed air at a pressure
at
> or slightly below the max boost pressure the ECU transducer will allow
(say,
> at 1.6 bar - sorry for the units) and then listen for leaks - or have some
> real fun, and dump a bucket of soapy water on the engine compartment and
> look for bubbles - kids enjoy this method and it makes car diagnosis fun
for
> the whole family ;-)
> The accumulator is, in essence, a pressure tank for the fuel system, you
may
> liken it to a device that deals with water hammer in pipes. Although I
have
> never dissected one, I did replace the one in my 5ktq once and it sounds
> like there's a large spring in there. My guess is that it cushions the
pump
> from the rapid changes in fuel delivery. I do believe that the check
valve
> Tony is referring to is mounted just above the pump in the tank.
> Good luck on understanding the fuel process.....if you really get into it,
> you'll realize why some have ditched the whole CIS stuff and gone with
> things like 034EFI and such.
> Cheers!
> Steve Sears
> 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> 1980 Audi 5k
> 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>
> "cp" > wrote in message
news:ag2Ve.236201$HI.1915@edtnps84...
> > > Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting
the
> screen from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done
> > > the crud will be trapped by the fuel filter in engine compartment (on
> Passenger side fender). You will need to change the filter
> > > more often as a result.
> >
> > Yeh, took care of that.
> >
> > > If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to
crank
> the starter for a longer time when starting to build
> > > pressure. I am not sure but if the accumulator is completely
> non-functional you may have a no-start condition result.
> >
> > Well, we bypassed the fuel accumulator and haven't noticed anything
> different, BUT the problem is SOLVED, turns out the hose from
> > the air cleaner to the intake was severed, now there's no problem at
all.
> It starts fine any time and idles fine. Whew! Glad I
> > didn't have to replace anything, what a learning experience, I think
I'll
> understand the whole fuel process soon! :-)
> >
> > cp
> >
> >
>
>

Hi Steve!

Thank you for the info, I'll try the other diagnostics! :-)

So what's special about this CIS or 034EFI thing?

cp

"Steve Sears" > wrote in message .. .
> cp,
> Good to hear that you solved the problem. You might want to check all the
> underhood hoses for leaks as well - heat and rubber don't really get along
> too well. One method for checking for leaks is to make a cap for the
> intake, and then get a regulator and supply compressed air at a pressure at
> or slightly below the max boost pressure the ECU transducer will allow (say,
> at 1.6 bar - sorry for the units) and then listen for leaks - or have some
> real fun, and dump a bucket of soapy water on the engine compartment and
> look for bubbles - kids enjoy this method and it makes car diagnosis fun for
> the whole family ;-)
> The accumulator is, in essence, a pressure tank for the fuel system, you may
> liken it to a device that deals with water hammer in pipes. Although I have
> never dissected one, I did replace the one in my 5ktq once and it sounds
> like there's a large spring in there. My guess is that it cushions the pump
> from the rapid changes in fuel delivery. I do believe that the check valve
> Tony is referring to is mounted just above the pump in the tank.
> Good luck on understanding the fuel process.....if you really get into it,
> you'll realize why some have ditched the whole CIS stuff and gone with
> things like 034EFI and such.
> Cheers!
> Steve Sears
> 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> 1980 Audi 5k
> 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>
> "cp" > wrote in message news:ag2Ve.236201$HI.1915@edtnps84...
>> > Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting the
> screen from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done
>> > the crud will be trapped by the fuel filter in engine compartment (on
> Passenger side fender). You will need to change the filter
>> > more often as a result.
>>
>> Yeh, took care of that.
>>
>> > If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to crank
> the starter for a longer time when starting to build
>> > pressure. I am not sure but if the accumulator is completely
> non-functional you may have a no-start condition result.
>>
>> Well, we bypassed the fuel accumulator and haven't noticed anything
> different, BUT the problem is SOLVED, turns out the hose from
>> the air cleaner to the intake was severed, now there's no problem at all.
> It starts fine any time and idles fine. Whew! Glad I
>> didn't have to replace anything, what a learning experience, I think I'll
> understand the whole fuel process soon! :-)
>>
>> cp
>>
>>
>
>

cp,
CIS is what your car has now - Continuous Injection System - the injectors
are open and constantly spraying, at variable rates depending on the amount
of air flowing into the engine measured by the air plate - as the plate
rises, there is more air flowing thru and the distributor increases the
pressure to the injectors, increasing flow. The problem is that the
metering plate system has a limit to the amount of air that can be measured,
and so things like Mass Airflow Sensors will do a better job at measuring
larger flows of air. If you look at the amount of equipment that can be
replaced with, essentially, a MAF, well let's say that a big chunk of the
passenger side of the engine bay is opened up, that can be filled with, say,
a massive hybrid turbocharger. To see what Javad has done with the
development of his Audi 80 Turbo Quattro with 034EFI (Electronic Fuel
Injection - I do believe that the 034 is an Audi-ism - aka a part number
prefix) - there's also Megasquirt, etc. You can find some talk on different
systems on Motorgeek.com
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ
1980 Audi 5k
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)

"cp" > wrote in message
news:ZqPVe.273390$on1.183473@clgrps13...
> Hi Steve!
>
> Thank you for the info, I'll try the other diagnostics! :-)
>
> So what's special about this CIS or 034EFI thing?
>
> cp
>
> "Steve Sears" > wrote in message
.. .
> > cp,
> > Good to hear that you solved the problem. You might want to check all
the
> > underhood hoses for leaks as well - heat and rubber don't really get
along
> > too well. One method for checking for leaks is to make a cap for the
> > intake, and then get a regulator and supply compressed air at a pressure
at
> > or slightly below the max boost pressure the ECU transducer will allow
(say,
> > at 1.6 bar - sorry for the units) and then listen for leaks - or have
some
> > real fun, and dump a bucket of soapy water on the engine compartment and
> > look for bubbles - kids enjoy this method and it makes car diagnosis fun
for
> > the whole family ;-)
> > The accumulator is, in essence, a pressure tank for the fuel system, you
may
> > liken it to a device that deals with water hammer in pipes. Although I
have
> > never dissected one, I did replace the one in my 5ktq once and it sounds
> > like there's a large spring in there. My guess is that it cushions the
pump
> > from the rapid changes in fuel delivery. I do believe that the check
valve
> > Tony is referring to is mounted just above the pump in the tank.
> > Good luck on understanding the fuel process.....if you really get into
it,
> > you'll realize why some have ditched the whole CIS stuff and gone with
> > things like 034EFI and such.
> > Cheers!
> > Steve Sears
> > 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> > 1980 Audi 5k
> > 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> > (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
> >
> > "cp" > wrote in message
news:ag2Ve.236201$HI.1915@edtnps84...
> >> > Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting
the
> > screen from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done
> >> > the crud will be trapped by the fuel filter in engine compartment (on
> > Passenger side fender). You will need to change the filter
> >> > more often as a result.
> >>
> >> Yeh, took care of that.
> >>
> >> > If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to
crank
> > the starter for a longer time when starting to build
> >> > pressure. I am not sure but if the accumulator is completely
> > non-functional you may have a no-start condition result.
> >>
> >> Well, we bypassed the fuel accumulator and haven't noticed anything
> > different, BUT the problem is SOLVED, turns out the hose from
> >> the air cleaner to the intake was severed, now there's no problem at
all.
> > It starts fine any time and idles fine. Whew! Glad I
> >> didn't have to replace anything, what a learning experience, I think
I'll
> > understand the whole fuel process soon! :-)
> >>
> >> cp
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

ahhhhhhh! Thank you for the info, all that junk is making me love my 1966 Heckflosse benz even more! Still, for a 20 year old car,
the audi IS amazing, what besides super cars could have compared to it 20 years ago? I have a review of the TQ and other cars in
it's class from 20 years back and it just blows the others away. It's looks were definitely years ahead, even today it looks like a
recent car, as compared to a mercedes or bmw or honda of the same vintage. Still, nothing like a good ol' benz.

cp


> cp,
> CIS is what your car has now - Continuous Injection System - the injectors
> are open and constantly spraying, at variable rates depending on the amount
> of air flowing into the engine measured by the air plate - as the plate
> rises, there is more air flowing thru and the distributor increases the
> pressure to the injectors, increasing flow. The problem is that the
> metering plate system has a limit to the amount of air that can be measured,
> and so things like Mass Airflow Sensors will do a better job at measuring
> larger flows of air. If you look at the amount of equipment that can be
> replaced with, essentially, a MAF, well let's say that a big chunk of the
> passenger side of the engine bay is opened up, that can be filled with, say,
> a massive hybrid turbocharger. To see what Javad has done with the
> development of his Audi 80 Turbo Quattro with 034EFI (Electronic Fuel
> Injection - I do believe that the 034 is an Audi-ism - aka a part number
> prefix) - there's also Megasquirt, etc. You can find some talk on different
> systems on Motorgeek.com
> Cheers!
> Steve Sears
> 1987 Audi 5kTQ
> 1980 Audi 5k
> 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
> (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>
> "cp" > wrote in message
> news:ZqPVe.273390$on1.183473@clgrps13...
>> Hi Steve!
>>
>> Thank you for the info, I'll try the other diagnostics! :-)
>>
>> So what's special about this CIS or 034EFI thing?
>>
>> cp
>>
>> "Steve Sears" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> > cp,
>> > Good to hear that you solved the problem. You might want to check all
> the
>> > underhood hoses for leaks as well - heat and rubber don't really get
> along
>> > too well. One method for checking for leaks is to make a cap for the
>> > intake, and then get a regulator and supply compressed air at a pressure
> at
>> > or slightly below the max boost pressure the ECU transducer will allow
> (say,
>> > at 1.6 bar - sorry for the units) and then listen for leaks - or have
> some
>> > real fun, and dump a bucket of soapy water on the engine compartment and
>> > look for bubbles - kids enjoy this method and it makes car diagnosis fun
> for
>> > the whole family ;-)
>> > The accumulator is, in essence, a pressure tank for the fuel system, you
> may
>> > liken it to a device that deals with water hammer in pipes. Although I
> have
>> > never dissected one, I did replace the one in my 5ktq once and it sounds
>> > like there's a large spring in there. My guess is that it cushions the
> pump
>> > from the rapid changes in fuel delivery. I do believe that the check
> valve
>> > Tony is referring to is mounted just above the pump in the tank.
>> > Good luck on understanding the fuel process.....if you really get into
> it,
>> > you'll realize why some have ditched the whole CIS stuff and gone with
>> > things like 034EFI and such.
>> > Cheers!
>> > Steve Sears
>> > 1987 Audi 5kTQ
>> > 1980 Audi 5k
>> > 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
>> > (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
>> >
>> > "cp" > wrote in message
> news:ag2Ve.236201$HI.1915@edtnps84...
>> >> > Flushing tank is fine but the pealing crud will continue so cutting
> the
>> > screen from the fuel pump is important. Once that is done
>> >> > the crud will be trapped by the fuel filter in engine compartment (on
>> > Passenger side fender). You will need to change the filter
>> >> > more often as a result.
>> >>
>> >> Yeh, took care of that.
>> >>
>> >> > If the fuel accumulator check valve goes bad then you will need to
> crank
>> > the starter for a longer time when starting to build
>> >> > pressure. I am not sure but if the accumulator is completely
>> > non-functional you may have a no-start condition result.
>> >>
>> >> Well, we bypassed the fuel accumulator and haven't noticed anything
>> > different, BUT the problem is SOLVED, turns out the hose from
>> >> the air cleaner to the intake was severed, now there's no problem at
> all.
>> > It starts fine any time and idles fine. Whew! Glad I
>> >> didn't have to replace anything, what a learning experience, I think
> I'll
>> > understand the whole fuel process soon! :-)
>> >>
>> >> cp
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Steve, is it worth it to get the K&N filter? I don't care about performance, it's got more than I need but I do a bit of mountain
driving and if it helps the car breath easier....

cp

cp,
I have a K&N protecting my garage shelf from dust - it does a wonderful job
at that. I had it in my 5ktq, and my 5k before that, and noticed little
perf. increase, other than making the whine from the turbo more noticable
(5ktq), but when I removed the filter I noticed that the metering plate and
all plumbing back of the filter were coated in a thin film of oil and dirt.
People with MAF's have reported that the heated wire MAF's tend to fail due
to oil&dirt accumulation while using K&Ns. Someone on Audifans once posted
a study conducted by a company concerned with keeping crucial computers
running (think - in bunkers?)....they concluded that paper was better than
air/oil. Stick with the cheap paper filters and change them regularly.
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ - paper filter keeping dust out
1980 Audi 5k - paper filter keeping dust out
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes - wire mesh and oil filter
keeping pterodactyls out
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
"cp" > wrote in message
news:Ms7Xe.236923$9A2.65188@edtnps89...
> Steve, is it worth it to get the K&N filter? I don't care about
performance, it's got more than I need but I do a bit of mountain
> driving and if it helps the car breath easier....
>
> cp
>
>