The Big Three Automakers Can't Sell Their ****ty Cars, So They'llTake Your Tax Money Instead

On Aug 23, 2:26*pm, "Jorge W. Arbusto, Prezidentchul Candydate"
> wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> > "Roger Hamilton" > wrote in message
> >news
>
> >> The primary problem with Detroit auto makers is the stinking unions
> >> that have a strangle hold on them.
>
> > Union contracts drafted in the glory days do indeed present cost
> > issues that are out of line with today's economy.
>
> >> The lazy union worker refuses to help Detroit when they need it.
>
> > Contracts that reflect the good old day are one thing, it's quite
> > another to grab your biggest paint brush and paint these guys as
> > lazy. *It's also quite wrong to state that they refuse to do anything
> > to help. *The unions have made concessions, so your statement is
> > wrong. *I would agree that the concessions they made don't go far
> > enough and that they don't recognize the real state of business in
> > America these days, but when you're going to make inflamatory
> > statements, you should strive for a more accurate statement.
> >> When Detroit can rid itself of the unions and put the union into its
> >> place, Detroit will again be
> >> successful. *Unions are a primarily what is killing this country.
>
> > Detroit does need to completely revamp union contracts. *That alone
> > will not cure their ills though. *Detroit also needs to revamp its
> > management structure and practices. *It may need this more than the
> > it needs help from the unions. *This however, is not unique to
> > Detroit. *I'm a capitalist, but when CEO's of ailing companies are
> > taking in $200M or more, while they are cutting workforces and
> > selling off parts of the company to cut cost, then there is a gross
> > imbalance at work. *When these same guys can walk out with $200M
> > after screwing up a company (read Home Depot),
>
> Not only did Robert Nardelli screw up Home Depot, he is now CEO of Chrysler,
> thanks to Cerberus Capital Management. *Cerberus has publicly stated that
> the continued success of Chrysler is irrelevant to Cerberus' overall
> strategy. *Cerberus will make money even if Chrysler fails. *What does this
> say about their anointed CEO's leadership skills?- Hide quoted text -

The same thing it says about Chrysler. The only thing either of
them
knows about cars is doorknob waxers, like Home Depot.
The only thing only either of them knows about Financing is Donald
Trump.
The only thing only either of them knows about management, is that
which somebody else manages.





>
> - Show quoted text -

"Steven L." > wrote in
:

> Jorge W. Arbusto, Prezidentchul Candydate wrote:
>> Roger Hamilton wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:39:23 -0700 (PDT), acd >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/26348390
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Big 3 Detroit-based automakers are seeking about $25 billion in
>>>> federal loans as they struggle to ride out a steep downturn in U.S.
>>>> auto sales, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How come you brainwashed-by-the-media right wing douchebags scream
>>>> "socialism is evil" whenever a national healthcare plan is proposed,
>>>> but you are all fine with corporate socialism?
>>>>
>>>> Oh - I have answered my own question... you're brainwashed by the
>>>> same corporate media that tells you it's "liberal". L -****ing - O
>>>> - L
>>> The primary problem with Detroit auto makers is the stinking unions
>>> that have a strangle hold on them. The lazy union worker refuses to
>>> help Detroit when they need it.
>>
>> The UAWs lush contracts may be part of the problem, but incompetent
>> management is responsible for the decline of the US auto industry.
>>
>> When a clueless finance guy (Rick Waggoner) was hired to head up GM,
>> was it the UAW's decision to hire him? Was it the UAW's decision to
>> hire Bob Lutz out of retirement to develop the product line after
>> Waggoner admitted he is clueless? As Bob Lutz said, "The car guys are
>> in charge now. The finance guys ran out of ideas a long time ago...".
>> Why is GM continuing to pay Waggoner a salary?
>>
>> The same thing happened at Chrysler in the mid '80s, when clueless
>> finance guy Don Riccardo flirted with bankruptcy.
>>
>>> Unions are a primarily what is killing this country.
>>
>> Hardly. From the BLS: "Union members accounted for 12.1 percent of
>> employed wage
>> and salary workers, essentially unchanged from 12.0 percent in 2006."
>
> But we're not comparing GM to Microsoft. We're comparing GM to Honda.
>
> Union members dominate the American automobile industry. And the labor
> costs in the automobile industry are much higher than in Japan, for two
> reasons: First, union contracts give higher wages and benefits. But
> second, in other countries like Japan and Europe, health care is
> socialized, so the cost of health care for auto workers is not counted
> against the auto company's bottom line like it is here in America.
>
> GM has said that health care costs for their workers add over $1,000 to
> the price of every car--sometimes much more than that. GM has to
> compete against foreign companies whose health care is paid by
> government taxes.


Honda doesn't have to pay health care costs since their
country has national health care. As does Germany and China
and every other country that is out-competing the USA.

Coincidence?

In article >,
Mitchell Holman > wrote:

> Honda doesn't have to pay health care costs since their
>country has national health care.

Even for their US plants?
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

On Aug 27, 10:40*pm, Mitchell Holman > wrote:
> "Steven L." > wrote :
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jorge W. Arbusto, Prezidentchul Candydate wrote:
> >> Roger Hamilton wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:39:23 -0700 (PDT), acd >
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>>http://www.cnbc.com/id/26348390
>
> >>>> The Big 3 Detroit-based automakers are seeking about $25 billion in
> >>>> federal loans as they struggle to ride out a steep downturn in U.S.
> >>>> auto sales, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
>
> >>>> How come you brainwashed-by-the-media right wing douchebags scream
> >>>> "socialism is evil" whenever a national healthcare plan is proposed,
> >>>> but you are all fine with corporate socialism?
>
> >>>> Oh - I have answered my own question... you're brainwashed by the
> >>>> same corporate media that tells you it's "liberal". *L -****ing - O
> >>>> - L
> >>> The primary problem with Detroit auto makers is the stinking unions
> >>> that have a strangle hold on them. *The lazy union worker refuses to
> >>> help Detroit when they need it.
>
> >> The UAWs lush contracts may be part of the problem, but incompetent
> >> management is responsible for the decline of the US auto industry.
>
> >> When a clueless *finance guy (Rick Waggoner) was hired to head up GM,
> >> was it the UAW's decision to hire him? *Was it the UAW's decision to
> >> hire Bob Lutz out of retirement to develop the product line after
> >> Waggoner admitted he is clueless? *As Bob Lutz said, "The car guys are
> >> in charge now. *The finance guys ran out of ideas a long time ago...".
> >> Why is GM continuing to pay Waggoner a salary?
>
> >> The same thing happened at Chrysler in the mid '80s, when clueless
> >> finance guy Don Riccardo flirted with bankruptcy.
>
> >>> Unions are a primarily what is killing this country.
>
> >> Hardly. *From the BLS: *"Union members accounted for 12.1 percent of
> >> employed wage
> >> and salary workers, essentially unchanged from 12.0 percent in 2006."
>
> > But we're not comparing GM to Microsoft. *We're comparing GM to Honda..
>
> > Union members dominate the American automobile industry. *And the labor
> > costs in the automobile industry are much higher than in Japan, for two
> > reasons: *First, union contracts give higher wages and benefits. *But
> > second, in other countries like Japan and Europe, health care is
> > socialized, so the cost of health care for auto workers is not counted
> > against the auto company's bottom line like it is here in America.
>
> > GM has said that health care costs for their workers add over $1,000 to
> > the price of every car--sometimes much more than that. *GM has to
> > compete against foreign companies whose health care is paid by
> > government taxes.
>
> * * Honda doesn't have to pay health care costs since their
> country has national health care. As does Germany and China
> and every other country that is out-competing the USA.
>
> * * Coincidence?- Hide quoted text -

No, Since the only thing any of the idiot companies, know
about cars or health care is the same thing: OIL.
Which is why the people with health and buisness brains invented
digital computers,
A.I., Solar Energy, Wind Energy, robots, lasers, masers, x-rays,
holograms,
WWW, nanotech, microcomputer computers, optical computers, CD,
DVD,
lasers printers, USB, Cruise Missiles, and Drones rather than
more idiot car companies.



>
> - Show quoted text -

>
> >> The primary problem with Detroit auto makers is the stinking unions
> >> that have a strangle hold on them. *The lazy union worker refuses to
> >> help Detroit when they need it. *When Detroit can rid itself of the
> >> unions and put the union into its place, Detroit will again be
> >> successful. *Unions are a primarily what is killing this country. *
>
> > Did the unions hold a gun to the republicans running Ford and Chevy
> > and force them to stick with gas guzzling SUVs and Trucks way to long
> > beause they have a bigger margin on each vehicle?
>
> Yes, in a way they did:
>
> Because labor costs are relatively independent of the product line: *A
> worker gets the same fringe benefits and health care package, regardless
> of whether he's working on an assembly line for subcompacts or an
> assembly line for SUVs. *For subcompacts, the revenue from the sales of
> such smallcarsmay not even be enough to cover the worker's health care
> costs and fringe benefits. *Traditionally, before the unions made
> concessions, Detroit was actually *losing* money on the sale of subcompacts.
>
> > Was it the unions fault Toyota and Honda picked up on and shifted way
> > from SUV's and trucks before the US auto companies?
>
> See above.
>
> Honda and Toyota don't have to pay health care benefits for their
> employees in Japan. *Health care is provided as a national program there.
>
>
>
> > In 2006 1,2,4 of the bestsellers were American trucks. *Gas go up.
> > Economy go bad. *American automakers don't have
> > anything else in the pipeline. *That is what killed them.
>
> > Sorry. *Keep making stuff up.
>
> > Ask a american dealer why sales are down. *I doubt he will will say
> > because of the high price of union labor. *He will probably say
> > because the economy is bad, high fuel prices,...and because nobody
> > likes the models we are producing.
>
> Detroit can't afford to produce subcompactcars. *They don't turn enough
> of a profit to compensate for the huge wages, fringe benefits and health
> care costs of their employees. *Not unless either the unions accept more
> concessions, or the United States enacts national health insurance and
> takes that burden off the auto industry.
>
> -- The primary problem with Detroit auto makers is the stinking unions
>> that have a strangle hold on them. The lazy union worker refuses to
>> help Detroit when they need it. When Detroit can rid itself of the
>> unions and put the union into its place, Detroit will again be
>> successful. Unions are a primarily what is killing this country.


> Did the unions hold a gun to the republicans running Ford and Chevy
> and force them to stick with gas guzzling SUVs and Trucks way to long
> beause they have a bigger margin on each vehicle?



Yes, in a way they did:

Because labor costs are relatively independent of the product line:
A
worker gets the same fringe benefits and health care package,
regardless
of whether he's working on an assembly line for subcompacts or an
assembly line for SUVs. For subcompacts, the revenue from the sales
of
such small cars may not even be enough to cover the worker's health
care
costs and fringe benefits. Traditionally, before the unions made
concessions, Detroit was actually *losing* money on the sale of
subcompacts.



> Was it the unions fault Toyota and Honda picked up on and shifted way
> from SUV's and trucks before the US auto companies?


See above.

Honda and Toyota don't have to pay health care benefits for their
employees in Japan. Health care is provided as a national program
there.



> In 2006 1,2,4 of the bestsellers were American trucks. Gas go up.
> Economy go bad. American automakers don't have
> anything else in the pipeline. That is what killed them.

> Steven L.
> Email:
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

The Big 3 Detroit-based automakers are seeking about $25 billion
federal loans as they struggle to ride out a steep downturn in U auto
sales, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
How come you brainwashed-by-the-media right wing douchebags scream
"socialism is evil" whenever a national healthcare plan is proposed
but you are all fine with corporate socialism?

Oh - I have answered my own question... you're brainwashed by the
same corporate media that tells you it's "liberal". *L -****ing - O-l
The primary problem with Detroit auto makers is the stinking unions
that have a strangle hold on them. *The lazy union worker refuses to
help Detroit when they need it.

The UAWs lush contracts may be part of the problem, but incompetent
management is responsible for the decline of the US auto industry.

When a clueless *finance guy (Rick Waggoner) was hired to head up GM,
was it the UAW's decision to hire him? *Was it the UAW's decision to
hire Bob Lutz out of retirement to develop the product line after
Waggoner admitted he is clueless? *As Bob Lutz said, "The car guys
are
in charge now. *The finance guys ran out of ideas a long time
ago...".
Why is GM continuing to pay Waggoner a salary?
The same thing happened at Chrysler in the mid '80s, when clueless
finance guy Don Riccardo flirted with bankruptcy.
>
Unions are a primarily what is killing this country.
>
> > >> Hardly. *From the BLS: *"Union members accounted for 12.1 percent of
> > >> employed wage
> > >> and salary workers, essentially unchanged from 12.0 percent in 2006."
>
> > > But we're not comparing GM to Microsoft. *We're comparing GM to Honda.
>
> > > Union members dominate the American automobile industry. *And the labor
> > > costs in the automobile industry are much higher than in Japan, for two
> > > reasons: *First, union contracts give higher wages and benefits. *But
> > > second, in other countries like Japan and Europe, health care is
> > > socialized, so the cost of health care for auto workers is not counted
> > > against the auto company's bottom line like it is here in America.
>
> > > GM has said that health care costs for their workers add over $1,000 to
> > > the price of every car--sometimes much more than that. *GM has to
> > > compete against foreign companies whose health care is paid by
> > > government taxes.
>
> > * * Honda doesn't have to pay health care costs since their
> > country has national health care. As does Germany and China
> > and every other country that is out-competing the USA.
>
> > * * Coincidence?- Hide quoted text -
>
> * * * No, Since the only thing any of the idiot companies, know
> * * * aboutcarsor health care is the same thing: OIL.
> * * * Which is why the people with health and buisness brains invented
> digital computers,
> * * * A.I., Solar Energy, Wind Energy, robots, lasers, masers, x-rays,
> holograms,
> * * * WWW, *nanotech, microcomputer computers, optical computers, CD,
> DVD,
> * * * lasers printers, *USB, Cruise Missiles, and Drones rather than
> more idiot car companies.
>
>
>
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, Since the only thing any of the idiot companies, know
about cars or health care is the same thing: OIL.
Which is why the people with health and buisness brains
invented
digital computers,
A.I., Solar Energy, Wind Energy, robots, lasers, masers, x-
rays,
holograms,
WWW, nanotech, microcomputer computers, optical computers, CD,
DVD,
lasers printers, USB, Cruise Missiles, and Drones rather than
more idiot car companies.

wrote:
>
>> Did the unions hold a gun to the republicans running Ford and Chevy
>> and force them to stick with gas guzzling SUVs and Trucks way to long
>> beause they have a bigger margin on each vehicle?
>
>
>
> Yes, in a way they did:
>
No they did not. Toyota idled the non-union truck plant in San Antonio
because sales fell apart after gas prices rose. Trucks are a no brainer for
automakers: The 1960s engineering costs were amortized a long time ago, and
the profit margin per unit is higher than on a relatively high tech car.

Toyota's plunge into big pickups veers into a Texas-size ravine

By Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
SAN ANTONIO - Until about three weeks ago, workers built pickups by
the thousands here at the sprawling Toyota truck factory south of town. No
longer.
Now, about 2,000 permanent employees draw a paycheck from a plant that
doesn't produce anything. They perform maintenance, talk about ways to
improve quality, and relearn tasks as basic as the best way to drive a bolt.

They're luckier than the plant's 200 temporary workers who work as
needed and an army of employees at its parts suppliers, who have been
furloughed.

Opened with great fanfare only a couple of years ago, the plant halted
production on Aug. 8 after demand collapsed for its Tundra full-size
pickups, amid sky-high fuel prices and free-falling home values. Production
won't restart until at least November.

It's a blow to San Antonio residents, who nevertheless are grateful
the company has kept so many workers on the payroll.

"It's crazy, but it's the way things are going right now," says Roy
Barrientes, whose son and son-in-law both were laid off from jobs at Toyota
suppliers.

The San Antonio plant's months-long closure is testing how Toyota, one
of the world's most respected and savvy companies, handles a miscalculation.

The decision to jump into making full-size pickups now is eating into
the Japanese automaker's bottom line and raising questions about why it,
too, was suckered by the same siren call of profitable big trucks that's now
sapping Detroit's Big Three.

It's humbling for an automaker noted in the past for being able to
grab market share when its American counterparts stumbled.

Toyota got into full-size trucks with "a little bit of hubris and
pride, thinking, 'We conquered all these other segments, and here is an
opportunity to put the Marlboro Man out of a Ford and into a Toyota,' " says
James Womack, chairman of the Lean Enterprise Institute, an educational
group that fosters streamlined production systems such as Toyota's. The
lesson: "Toyota's crystal ball doesn't work better than anyone else's."

Toyota's U.S. sales for the year are down 7.6% through July. That's
less than half the pace of the combined sales cascade for General Motors,
Ford Motor and Chrysler in the period, but if it continues, it would be
Toyota's first full-year sales reversal since 1995, Autodata says. Industry
sales totals for August are due to be reported on Wednesday.

Trucks, along with some luxury vehicles, drove Toyota into its current
trouble. Tundra sales alone were off 42.1% in July from July 2007. Tundras
now languish an average of 81 days on dealers' lots, vs. taking 28 days to
sell a year ago, says Power Information Network.

Toyota's U.S. woes, along with a strong yen and growing commodities
costs, contributed to a 28% drop in its latest quarterly profit.

Rebound in the cards?

The company and some experts think trucks will rebound and Toyota will
be vindicated.

"We're a full-line manufacturer," Bob Carter, U.S. sales chief for
Toyota's cars and trucks, said in a recent conference call. "Certainly, the
market has been surprised in the truck area, but we have full confidence
it's going to return in the future."

Toyota, flush with cash, "is a long-term player," says Michael
Robinet, vice president of auto market forecaster CSM Worldwide. "The Asian
culture thinks in years and decades, not months and quarters."

The long view may have to be quite long. The U.S. truck market is
running 23% below last year's pace, Autodata says. Pickup sales likely won't
grow substantially until a revival in housing - nowhere in sight - puts cash
in the pockets of contractors and construction workers who are hard-core
truck fans. And the market might never see previous levels, because fewer
fancy pickups will be bought for non-work use in an era of higher fuel
prices.

'The lure was the money'

It's easy to see why full-size trucks appealed to Toyota. They
generally are cheaper to make than cars, yet can generate up to $15,000
profit per unit.

"The lure was the money," Womack says. "It would have taken a lot of
discipline to stay out of this thing."

Taking dead aim at Ford's F-Series and GM's Chevrolet Silverado -
which every year have delivered millions in profit - Toyota took the unusual
step of building its plant in Texas. The state is the heart of the U.S.
pickup market but far from traditional industry suppliers.

The plant hired and trained many people who had never worked in an
auto plant. It relocated contract suppliers onto the premises, creating
hundreds more jobs. Toyota officials vowed to sell 200,000 Tundra pickups in
2007 and almost made it.

But to get there, even when trucks were still selling, Toyota had to
throw on incentives, a painful early sign of trouble for a vehicle fresh on
the market. There have been other ominous signs: A study by researcher
Acxiom found that foreign trucks such as Tundra and Nissan's Titan don't
engender as much brand loyalty among pickup buyers as the Detroit mainstays.

Toyota archrival Honda, by contrast, resisted the temptation of
full-size trucks and has been rewarded. U.S. sales of its car-heavy lineup
were off only 1.6% in July - and are up for the year. Besides dodging a
bullet when U.S. truck sales imploded, Honda avoided another downside to
full-size trucks: limited appeal in Europe or Asia. If the U.S. market
tanks, there aren't many options for selling them offshore.

"They were smart," Robinet says of Honda. "This is a company that in
(times of) $1.50 or $2 (a gallon) fuel said, 'We're not going into the truck
market. We're going to stick to our knitting.' "

Rethinking, restructuring

Toyota announced it has halted Tundra production for good at its
Princeton, Ind., plant and will consolidate it in San Antonio. That move,
along with continuing to pay workers during the shutdown, has softened the
blow in Texas.

Mostly non-union Toyota is continuing the Japanese tradition of
lifetime employment policies for permanent hires. Breaking with that
practice could lead to consequences at other global Toyota facilities.

"If they laid off San Antonio workers for three months, that would be
the shot heard 'round the world," says Jeffrey Liker, a University of
Michigan professor whose The Toyota Way and other books on Toyota's
production system have become business best sellers.

If the training program for the San Antonio plant stoppage works, the
result could be workers with higher skills and more loyalty, lowering the
plant's costs in the future.

It also is building a reservoir of local good will.

"If I were in Texas, I think any sane person would say, 'The market is
awful, and this crazy company is actually keeping people employed,' " Liker
says.

Staying busy

There's plenty for workers to do while not making trucks, Toyota
officials insist. In the press to get production started, many new hires
never were fully steeped in Toyota methods. Trainers now can make sure
workers are knowledgeable about best practices, says Toyota spokesman Mike
Goss.

Those can be as simple as the best way to drive bolts with an impact
wrench, a process some workers may repeat thousands of times a day.

They might practice picking up five at a time in the exact
configuration for each to be driven most efficiently.

Texans express gratitude toward Toyota for continuing paychecks, and
say they believe Toyota will continue to invest in the plant.

"Toyota is still the top," says Judge Nelson Wolff, the Bexar County
executive who took a leading role in trying to lure Toyota here. "They are
there for the long term."

Former Texas state legislator John Longoria, grabbing a coffee with
Wolff across the street from the county courthouse, adds that no one saw
this kind of truck sales collapse coming.

The Japanese, he says, "plan 10, 30, 40 years ahead of time, and they
didn't foresee this."

But it was apparent during a recent visit that the shutdown is not
without pain and that Texans feel they've put a lot on the line for Toyota.

As Wolff, the city's former mayor, points out in his book Transforming
San Antonio, getting the plant involved $133 million in public subsidies and
donation of 2,500 acres of land. If Toyota hadn't taken extra steps to
protect workers during the shutdown, "It could force closer scrutiny of
Toyota's agreement that led to creation of the plant."

Supplier jobs scarce

At the South Park Mall, about 10 miles from the plant, Barrientes, 44,
says his son and son-in-law are on furlough from a supplier of frame parts
for the plant. He says they plan to join him in a moving business, but don't
look forward being on the road, away from their families.

Others who thought they might land coveted jobs at Toyota or a
supplier have to look elsewhere. Jose Rodriguez, 21, thought he had lined up
a job with interiors supplier Avanzar, only to see the offer dashed.

"They said they were going to call back, and they never called back,"
Rodriguez says.

Avanzar CEO Berto Guerra says Toyota is working with him to keep
Avanzar's permanent workers on the payroll and find new jobs for
temporaries. Local governments and businesses also have offered help finding
new jobs for many of the 600 workers, who earn from $11 to $22 an hour.
"This is a bump in the road," he says.

Toyota's sprawling plant is well off the main drag and surrounded by a
huge greenbelt. A Subway sandwich shop is one of the few businesses that
have sprung up so far to cater to Toyota workers.

Stephen Carter, a physician in the Toyota Family Health Center outside
the complex's south perimeter, says workers are confident they'll get
through the rough patch.

As he headed to his Hummer with a sandwich from Subway, he says, "I'm
sure it's creating a lot of anxiety, but there's a lot of optimism."

wrote:
> The Big 3 Detroit-based automakers are seeking about $25 billion
> federal loans as they struggle to ride out a steep downturn in U auto
> sales, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
> How come you brainwashed-by-the-media right wing douchebags scream
> "socialism is evil" whenever a national healthcare plan is proposed
> but you are all fine with corporate socialism?

They're screaming "socialism is evil" whenever they're not mindlessly
braying "Duh, yune-yuns is kom-mun-nist".