Bicycles - what's the primary fuel to your fire?

Brent P wrote:
>
> On 2008-08-14, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
> > Brent P wrote:
>
> >> Gee. Second class traffic that has to stop for the drivers who are
> >> turning across their path. Plus all the effort to get going again and
> >> possibily missing a green signal. And you wonder why serious
> >> transportation bicyclists don't care for bike lanes?
>
> > If you have a dedicated bicycle lane, then turning traffic knows where
> > bicycles will be. Its just like a sidewalk.
>
> That's the fracking problem, it's like a sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is
> DANGEROUS at any speeds ABOVE A WALKING PACE.

Because drivers expect the occupants of sidewalks to be traveling at a
walking pace*.

If there is a bicycle lane, drivers would be looking for objects moving
at cycling speeds.

*This goes for joggers too. If you want to run, go find a track. The
other day, I saw some poor little old lady get tangled up with a runner
while she was trying to walk on the sidewalk in downtown Kirkland.

--
Paul Hovnanian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

On 2008-08-15, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
> Brent P wrote:
>>
>> On 2008-08-14, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
>> > Brent P wrote:
>>
>> >> Gee. Second class traffic that has to stop for the drivers who are
>> >> turning across their path. Plus all the effort to get going again and
>> >> possibily missing a green signal. And you wonder why serious
>> >> transportation bicyclists don't care for bike lanes?
>>
>> > If you have a dedicated bicycle lane, then turning traffic knows where
>> > bicycles will be. Its just like a sidewalk.
>>
>> That's the fracking problem, it's like a sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is
>> DANGEROUS at any speeds ABOVE A WALKING PACE.
>
> Because drivers expect the occupants of sidewalks to be traveling at a
> walking pace*.

That's why street parallel bicycle ghettos are useless.

> If there is a bicycle lane, drivers would be looking for objects moving
> at cycling speeds.

Most drivers think this is ~5mph. The vast majority of my biking is at
20mph +/- 5mph.

I've had drivers pass me to the point I was next to their passenger side
door and then decide I was no longer of concern because I must have been
'way behind them' at that point. Drivers move left to pass and actually
start moving back right when they RIGHT NEXT TO ME.

Bicycle ghettos only amplify the issue.

As to conflicts I haven't even started to mention the others that decide
to use bicycle lanes for their purposes. Everything from the joggers to
the double parkers to people riding those motorized rascal scooter
things. The list goes on and on. You chose your words correctly the
first time, it's like a sidewalk.

On Aug 15, 1:35*pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > wrote:
> Brent P wrote:
>
> > On 2008-08-14, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
> > > Brent P wrote:
>
> > >> Gee. Second class traffic that has to stop for the drivers who are
> > >> turning across their path. Plus all the effort to get going again and
> > >> possibily missing a green signal. And you wonder why serious
> > >> transportation bicyclists don't care for bike lanes?
>
> > > If you have a dedicated bicycle lane, then turning traffic knows where
> > > bicycles will be. Its just like a sidewalk.
>
> > That's the fracking problem, it's like a sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is
> > DANGEROUS at any speeds ABOVE A WALKING PACE.
>
> Because drivers expect the occupants of sidewalks to be traveling at a
> walking pace*.
>
> If there is a bicycle lane, drivers would be looking for objects moving
> at cycling speeds.

No they won't. They won't be looking for anything at all, because
99.44% of the time the bike lane will be completely vacant. they also
won't be looking for cyclists in travel lanes as they will assume that
if there are any that they will stick to the bike lanes.

Riding in the travel lane is still safer than a bike lane in the door
zone, by far. At least then motorists *have* to acknowledge your
presence.

nate

N8N wrote:
>
> On Aug 15, 1:35 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > wrote:
> > Brent P wrote:
> >
> > > On 2008-08-14, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
> > > > Brent P wrote:
> >
> > > >> Gee. Second class traffic that has to stop for the drivers who are
> > > >> turning across their path. Plus all the effort to get going again and
> > > >> possibily missing a green signal. And you wonder why serious
> > > >> transportation bicyclists don't care for bike lanes?
> >
> > > > If you have a dedicated bicycle lane, then turning traffic knows where
> > > > bicycles will be. Its just like a sidewalk.
> >
> > > That's the fracking problem, it's like a sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is
> > > DANGEROUS at any speeds ABOVE A WALKING PACE.
> >
> > Because drivers expect the occupants of sidewalks to be traveling at a
> > walking pace*.
> >
> > If there is a bicycle lane, drivers would be looking for objects moving
> > at cycling speeds.
>
> No they won't. They won't be looking for anything at all, because
> 99.44% of the time the bike lane will be completely vacant. they also
> won't be looking for cyclists in travel lanes as they will assume that
> if there are any that they will stick to the bike lanes.
>
> Riding in the travel lane is still safer than a bike lane in the door
> zone, by far. At least then motorists *have* to acknowledge your
> presence.

No, they don't. If I'm making a right turn, I'm not expecting traffic to
be passing me on the right. If there is a sidewalk or designated bike
lane to my right, then these might be occupied and I'll be watching
them.

If you travel in the traffic lane on a bicycle, then you must comply
with traffic laws. ALL traffic laws. This includes waiting your turn at
the back end of a line of cars stopped at an intersection. Even if they
passed you in mid-block, you are ****ed, and there's plenty of room in
the gutter.

We had some clown squashed by a dump truck turning right in Seattle
trying to pass on a wide shoulder last year. I think they should take
the bent and mangled bicycles from each of these accidents and hang them
on a pole at the location just to remind cyclists how dangerous their
antics are.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
c (velocity of light in a vacuum) = 1.8x10^12 furlongs per fortnight

"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote:
>
> In article >,
> Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
> >
> >again'? Get in shape! Learn to ride properly. And lose those stupid
> >pedal cleats.
>
> Riding properly means using the pedal cleats.

I just saw some clown with his feet stuck in cleats approaching an
intersection today. He had to run up onto the sidewalk and grab a
utility pole to keep from falling over.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Happily doing the work of 3 Men ... Moe, Larry & Curly

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
> N8N wrote:
>
>>On Aug 15, 1:35 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > wrote:
>>
>>>Brent P wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2008-08-14, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Brent P wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>Gee. Second class traffic that has to stop for the drivers who are
>>>>>>turning across their path. Plus all the effort to get going again and
>>>>>>possibily missing a green signal. And you wonder why serious
>>>>>>transportation bicyclists don't care for bike lanes?
>>>
>>>>>If you have a dedicated bicycle lane, then turning traffic knows where
>>>>>bicycles will be. Its just like a sidewalk.
>>>
>>>>That's the fracking problem, it's like a sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is
>>>>DANGEROUS at any speeds ABOVE A WALKING PACE.
>>>
>>>Because drivers expect the occupants of sidewalks to be traveling at a
>>>walking pace*.
>>>
>>>If there is a bicycle lane, drivers would be looking for objects moving
>>>at cycling speeds.
>>
>>No they won't. They won't be looking for anything at all, because
>>99.44% of the time the bike lane will be completely vacant. they also
>>won't be looking for cyclists in travel lanes as they will assume that
>>if there are any that they will stick to the bike lanes.
>>
>>Riding in the travel lane is still safer than a bike lane in the door
>>zone, by far. At least then motorists *have* to acknowledge your
>>presence.
>
>
> No, they don't. If I'm making a right turn, I'm not expecting traffic to
> be passing me on the right.

Agreed.

> If there is a sidewalk or designated bike
> lane to my right, then these might be occupied and I'll be watching
> them.

You might be, but 99% of drivers still won't.

> If you travel in the traffic lane on a bicycle, then you must comply
> with traffic laws. ALL traffic laws. This includes waiting your turn at
> the back end of a line of cars stopped at an intersection. Even if they
> passed you in mid-block, you are ****ed, and there's plenty of room in
> the gutter.

Agreed.

> We had some clown squashed by a dump truck turning right in Seattle
> trying to pass on a wide shoulder last year. I think they should take
> the bent and mangled bicycles from each of these accidents and hang them
> on a pole at the location just to remind cyclists how dangerous their
> antics are.

Agreed. But bike lanes still suck because they will just essentially
make gutter passing legal and encouraged, and drivers won't pay any more
attention than they do now, even though they will theoretically have the
responsibility to do so. It would be far better to simply reiterate
your point about compliance with all traffic laws above.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 2008-08-16, Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:

> If you travel in the traffic lane on a bicycle, then you must comply
> with traffic laws. ALL traffic laws. This includes waiting your turn at
> the back end of a line of cars stopped at an intersection.

I do. And you know what? Drivers don't.

> Even if they
> passed you in mid-block, you are ****ed, and there's plenty of room in
> the gutter.

The frack? I'll tell you gets ****ed off. It's drivers who are
irrational and hate bicyclists. Like the people who have become enraged
that they were behind me in a queue. The ones who have endangered my
life and their own because they had to kiss the bumper of the vehicle in
front of me or wait at the red signal a couple seconds longer than they
would have without passing me. Like the asshat I had to deal with
today. I am slowing to a red light and this guy has to brush pass me,
then cut right in front of me and nail the brakes. I dodge him and stop
in front of him. He then starts telling me I have to be on the sidewalk.
Somehow, I think he's not all that unlike you.

> We had some clown squashed by a dump truck turning right in Seattle
> trying to pass on a wide shoulder last year. I think they should take
> the bent and mangled bicycles from each of these accidents and hang them
> on a pole at the location just to remind cyclists how dangerous their
> antics are.

Um... there is no functional difference between a shoulder and a bike
lane. They are stripped off bicycle ghetto. Thanks for supporting my
point that they are dangerous.

> I am slowing to a red light and this guy has to brush pass me,
> then cut right in front of me and nail the brakes. I dodge him and stop
> in front of him. He then starts telling me I have to be on the sidewalk.

How about an SUV driver that passed me quickly and appeared to be trying
to get through a green signal, but then slammed on the brakes when the
signal turned yellow. A Land Rover driver got behind the SUV and I was
behind that. The signal turned green, but the SUV driver wouldn't move.
"That's a green light! Go, please!" The SUV driver still wouldn't
move. Then the Land Rover driver got the Sloth's attention, and it
finally started moving. I had to speed through because the Sloth took
so long to start moving, that the light turned yellow as I entered the
intersection.

I don't go faster than a walking pace on the walkways. It's too
dangerous with pedestrians walking in seemingly-random directions,
animal pets with leashes, pedestrians stopping in the middle of the
walkway to answer their mobile phones (not that drivers on the road
haven't tried that too), and stopping at every corner to check for
pedestrians and other hazards. Walkways are not intended for anything
except pedestrian traffic.

In article >,
Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
>"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote:
>>
>> In article >,
>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. > wrote:
>> >
>> >again'? Get in shape! Learn to ride properly. And lose those stupid
>> >pedal cleats.
>>
>> Riding properly means using the pedal cleats.
>
>I just saw some clown with his feet stuck in cleats approaching an
>intersection today. He had to run up onto the sidewalk and grab a
>utility pole to keep from falling over.

You've probably seen drivers with manual transmissions stall at
traffic lights too. It's about the same level of skill required to
avoid either.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

On 2008-08-17, Alexander Rogge > wrote:
>> I am slowing to a red light and this guy has to brush pass me,
>> then cut right in front of me and nail the brakes. I dodge him and stop
>> in front of him. He then starts telling me I have to be on the sidewalk.
>
> How about an SUV driver that passed me quickly and appeared to be trying
> to get through a green signal, but then slammed on the brakes when the
> signal turned yellow. A Land Rover driver got behind the SUV and I was
> behind that. The signal turned green, but the SUV driver wouldn't move.
> "That's a green light! Go, please!" The SUV driver still wouldn't
> move. Then the Land Rover driver got the Sloth's attention, and it
> finally started moving. I had to speed through because the Sloth took
> so long to start moving, that the light turned yellow as I entered the
> intersection.

Biking today I was two back from a non-mover on green. I honked, the guy
in front of me honked, the people behind me honked. The guy starts
moving his convertible and then stops. Car in front of me stops. I can't
stop that fast, I dodge right. Now I'm behind the arse. Both him and his
wife start yelling at me... (if you got to blame someone, blame the
bicyclist I guess) People behind are laying on their horns. I
tell 'em right back that's a green light, go!. Arse is crawling so
slow it's hard to keep balance. I lay on the airhorn and join everyone
else. He won't move. This guy had passed me eariler. Then he nails the
brakes again, I dodge... end up in front of him... he begins to rev the
engine as to charge me... I dodge off the road... He goes by at full rpm
by the sound of it.

My guess is this guy decided that he didn't like bicyclists on the road
and when I didn't gutter pass but stay in the queue he needed a new plan
to frack with me. Either that or he had a huge over reaction to being
honked at BY EVERYONE behind him. There were three other vehicles
besides my bicycle and I heard 3 other distict horns.