74 Cutlass with starting problem

I drive as my primary car a 1974 Olds Cutlass. I am only the second
owner and it has 66,000 miles on it. It had less than 40,000 on it when
I got it a few years ago. It is the envy of many young people in my
town!

Anyway, it has developed an intermittent starting problem. About 5
times now over 3 months it has failed to start. When I turn the key,
the dash lights up and I am obviously getting power from the battery.
(The battery is new.) But nothing else happens. Not even a click from
the starter. After some time passes, between 5 minutes and a couple of
hours, it will start again. The only thing I've noticed in common with
the situations in which it won't start is that it has always been
driven within 1-3 hours. It always starts in the morning or when it has
sat longer. I don't think it is weather related, as our summer
(southeast US) has been inordinately cool.

Two different mechanics have looked at it and tried to get it to fail,
and of course it won't. I've been told it could be anything between the
ignition, wiring, and starter, and both are reluctant to do
investigatory work.

It currently does appear to have a wiring problem; when I turn on the
headlights, the arrow in the dashboard for the left turn signal lights
up and stays lit, and the turn signal doesn't work. It isn't the bulb.
It is only because of this problem that the second mechanic has agreed
to look at the situation, in case the problems are related.

I may be at the point where I have to pay for them to start switching
out parts. I don't have complete records on the car's history. My
question is, what is statistically the most likely part in this area to
have failed on this 30 year old car?

Thanks for any tips,

Amanda

In rec.autos.tech Amanda Robin > wrote:
> I drive as my primary car a 1974 Olds Cutlass. I am only the second
[snip]
> Anyway, it has developed an intermittent starting problem. About 5
[snip]
> I may be at the point where I have to pay for them to start switching
> out parts. I don't have complete records on the car's history. My
> question is, what is statistically the most likely part in this area to
> have failed on this 30 year old car?

Knowing the statistically most likely electrical part or subsystem
to fail on your car might be an interesting factoid to know, but it's
nearly useless when it comes to fixing your *particular* problem.

You appear to be assuming that replacing parts by picking them
from a list of statistically likely failures is a reasonable way
for a professional mechanic[1] to diagnose an electrical problem.
It isn't. What a good mechanic will do is take careful notes of your
description of the symptoms and the circumstances under which they
occur. Then he will test and inspect various systems on your car.
Only after he has narrowed down his diagnosis to a near certainty,
will he will he replace a part.

Certainly there are exceptions to this scenario, but for the most part,
it is best practice to identify the fault, and the cause of the fault,
before simply replacing a bad part, even if you know for sure that
the part is defective. This is so you don't end up replacing that
part multiple times, because you haven't fixed the root cause that
made the part fail in the first place.

[1] It's not a good way for an amateur to diagnose electrical problems
either, but unfortunately there are far too many people attempting to
fix electrical system problems with only the sketchiest understanding
of even the basics of electrical theory. The same goes for mechanical
systems, too, but it seems to show up more clearly when it comes to
electrics and electronics.

Amanda,
Years ago we had a motorhome that was made out of a Chevyvan 30. Although I
am somewhat vague on the exact function of it, there was an ignition wire
which travelled through a metal tube from the top to the bottom of the
engine. It broke and so my dad replaced it - it was X inches long, so the
wire my dad spliced in was X+2 inches long. I took the vehicle for the
weekend and about 10 minutes from home it began to shudder, hesitate, then
stall. After about 20 minutes it fired right back up again, but then
repeated the drama after another 8 minutes or so. It turned out that, when
heated, the wire managed to come into contact with the exhaust manifold and
shorted out the ignition.
I'd be looking at anything that gets exposed to the heat - not just the
starter and solenoid, but follow the wiring back to the firewall.
Unfortunately, gremlins like this are hard to pinpoint unless they are
discovered when they are manifesting themselves. Check the wiring for
broken connections or cross-connections within the wiring harness in the
engine bay. I'd say take the car out and get the engine bay up to temp -
maybe after a 1/2 hour drive or so. End the trip on the ramps (or garage
bay) leave the car off for a while - to let the heat soak in because
there's no air flowing through the engine compartment and the fan's off -
leave the hood down too. Try to revive the gremlin after that. You can
check/clean the connections to the starter/solenoid - or even just replace
the starter with a used one: www.car-part.com (usual disclaimers: no $
affiliation, blah blah) shows starters for a '74 Cutlass in the southeast US
to be as low as $15 - buy one of those, and if it makes the gremlin go away,
you've found the problem....if not, well, add it to the spare part bin.
For the turn signal problem - check out the turn signal/taillight housings -
there's probably a cross-connection between the parking lights and the turn
signal (probably from corrosion in one of the housings)
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ - shoed with car-part.com rims
1980 Audi 5k - watching car-part.com for a windshield (that I can drive to
get)
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes - car-part.com is of little
help - ebay.de on the other hand.....
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)

"Amanda Robin" > wrote in message
...
> I drive as my primary car a 1974 Olds Cutlass. I am only the second
> owner and it has 66,000 miles on it. It had less than 40,000 on it when
> I got it a few years ago. It is the envy of many young people in my
> town!
>
> Anyway, it has developed an intermittent starting problem. About 5
> times now over 3 months it has failed to start. When I turn the key,
> the dash lights up and I am obviously getting power from the battery.
> (The battery is new.) But nothing else happens. Not even a click from
> the starter. After some time passes, between 5 minutes and a couple of
> hours, it will start again. The only thing I've noticed in common with
> the situations in which it won't start is that it has always been
> driven within 1-3 hours. It always starts in the morning or when it has
> sat longer. I don't think it is weather related, as our summer
> (southeast US) has been inordinately cool.
>
> Two different mechanics have looked at it and tried to get it to fail,
> and of course it won't. I've been told it could be anything between the
> ignition, wiring, and starter, and both are reluctant to do
> investigatory work.
>
> It currently does appear to have a wiring problem; when I turn on the
> headlights, the arrow in the dashboard for the left turn signal lights
> up and stays lit, and the turn signal doesn't work. It isn't the bulb.
> It is only because of this problem that the second mechanic has agreed
> to look at the situation, in case the problems are related.
>
> I may be at the point where I have to pay for them to start switching
> out parts. I don't have complete records on the car's history. My
> question is, what is statistically the most likely part in this area to
> have failed on this 30 year old car?
>
> Thanks for any tips,
>
> Amanda

Amanda Robin wrote:
> I drive as my primary car a 1974 Olds Cutlass. I am only the second
> owner and it has 66,000 miles on it. It had less than 40,000 on it when
> I got it a few years ago. It is the envy of many young people in my
> town!
>
> Anyway, it has developed an intermittent starting problem. About 5
> times now over 3 months it has failed to start. When I turn the key,
> the dash lights up and I am obviously getting power from the battery.
> (The battery is new.) But nothing else happens. Not even a click from
> the starter. After some time passes, between 5 minutes and a couple of
> hours, it will start again. The only thing I've noticed in common with
> the situations in which it won't start is that it has always been
> driven within 1-3 hours. It always starts in the morning or when it has
> sat longer. I don't think it is weather related, as our summer
> (southeast US) has been inordinately cool.

The usual list of suspects a

1. Bad connection on battery to battery cable or battery cable to starter.
2. Bad battery cable.
3. Bad starter solenoid.
3. Problems related to the starter relay.


>
> Two different mechanics have looked at it and tried to get it to fail,
> and of course it won't. I've been told it could be anything between the
> ignition, wiring, and starter, and both are reluctant to do
> investigatory work.
>
> It currently does appear to have a wiring problem; when I turn on the
> headlights, the arrow in the dashboard for the left turn signal lights
> up and stays lit, and the turn signal doesn't work. It isn't the bulb.
> It is only because of this problem that the second mechanic has agreed
> to look at the situation, in case the problems are related.
>
> I may be at the point where I have to pay for them to start switching
> out parts. I don't have complete records on the car's history. My
> question is, what is statistically the most likely part in this area to
> have failed on this 30 year old car?
>
> Thanks for any tips,
>
> Amanda

Threeducks responds:

>Amanda Robin wrote:
>> I drive as my primary car a 1974 Olds Cutlass. I am only the second
>> owner and it has 66,000 miles on it. It had less than 40,000 on it when
>> I got it a few years ago. It is the envy of many young people in my
>> town!
>>
>> Anyway, it has developed an intermittent starting problem. About 5
>> times now over 3 months it has failed to start. When I turn the key,
>> the dash lights up and I am obviously getting power from the battery.
>> (The battery is new.) But nothing else happens. Not even a click from
>> the starter. After some time passes, between 5 minutes and a couple of
>> hours, it will start again. The only thing I've noticed in common with
>> the situations in which it won't start is that it has always been
>> driven within 1-3 hours. It always starts in the morning or when it has
>> sat longer. I don't think it is weather related, as our summer
>> (southeast US) has been inordinately cool.
>
>The usual list of suspects a
>
>1. Bad connection on battery to battery cable or battery cable to starter.
>2. Bad battery cable.
>3. Bad starter solenoid.
>3. Problems related to the starter relay.
>
>

Years ago, I had, IIRC, a '78 Olds that did similar things. The starter
solenoid was placed too close to the exhaust manifold, so after it got some age
on it, heat would cause it to fail--temporarily. Have the mechanics try heating
the solenoid to see if it quits working.

Charlie Self
"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers." H. L. Mencken

Amanda Robin wrote in rec.autos.tech

> I may be at the point where I have to pay for them to start switching
> out parts. I don't have complete records on the car's history. My
> question is, what is statistically the most likely part in this area to
> have failed on this 30 year old car?

Statistically, it is the same for all cars, of all ages. An intermittant
problem can be a bear to track down. Especially since it happens once
every few weeks. You won't know if you fixed it until the problems
occurs again, and then it may be something else.
Even though it appears to you that the battery and cables are good,
that does not mean they are. A poor, or weak, connection can do
exactly what you are describing. The battery cables need to be pulled
and connections cleaned. Other possible problems are the ignition
switch, and solenoid/starter. Plus any safety switch on the transmission.
The best time to check would be when it is happening. Someone could
crawl around the car and look for problems while you try to start the car.

--
Dick #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin

Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:

Amanda Robin wrote:
>
> Thanks for any tips,

Does the car have a separate solenoid switch, or is the switch built into the
starter? If it's separate from the starter, you will be able to bypass it (this is
called "jumping" the switch). You will also be able to bypass the ignition switch.
Jumping the solenoid will tell you if the solenoid is bad. Jumping the ignition
switch will tell you if the ignition switch is bad. Unfortunately, many GM cars built
the solenoid into the starter; *if that's the case with the Cutlass, the following
techniques will not work*.

The solenoid is a cylinder about the size of a baby's fist. It has two cables about
1/2" thick and either one or two small wires attached to it. One of the heavy cables
is connected to the battery and the other to the starter. One of the small wires runs
to the ignition switch. When you try to start the car, current flows through the
small wires. This activates an electromagnet in the switch, which connects the
starter to the battery. You bypass the solenoid switch with an extra battery cable.

Your first step is to loosen and clean all electrical connections at the solenoid,
battery, and starter and retighten them. Buy an extra battery cable long enough to
reach from the starter to the battery. You will also need a short piece of 16 gauge
wire long enough to reach the solenoid switch from a good ground.

The next time the car won't start, run some tests.

First test the ignition switch. In some cases, the ignition switch provides power to
the solenoid magnet; in other designs, it will complete the circuit to ground.
Usually, the switch ignition grounds the circuit. If you have one small wire, this
will have no power on it and will run to the ignition switch. Hook your 16 gauge wire
to ground and touch it to the terminal on the solenoid; if the starter turns over,
the problem is in your ignition switch.

If you have two small wires to the solenoid, usually one runs to the switch and the
other is a power lead. Use an electrical circuit tester to determine which wire is
hot. Hook your 16 gauge wire to ground and touch it to the other terminal on the
solenoid; if the starter turns over, the problem is in your ignition switch.

If the ignition tests good, jump the solenoid. Touch one end of your extra battery
cable to the cable from the car battery and the other end to the cable to the starter
(I used to use a set of Channel-lock pliers and gloves to do this). If the starter
turns over, replace the solenoid switch. If the starter doesn't turn over, touch one
end of your extra battery cable to the positive pole of the battery and the other end
to the cable to the starter. If the starter turns over, replace the battery cable to
the solenoid. If the starter doesn't turn over, touch one end of your extra battery
cable to the positive pole of the battery and the other end to the terminal on the
starter. If the starter turns over, replace the battery cable to the solenoid and the
starter cable. I would also replace the solenoid if I had to replace either of the
cables. If the starter doesn't turn over when connected directly to the battery in
this way, the problem is in the starter.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Your turn signal problem can be traced to
a bad ground on either the left front or left rear
signal indicator lamps. It's probably a dual
filament design. When the ground goes bad,
the current will flow back through the indicator
in the dash. Because the ground is bad, you
cannot get enough current flow to heat up the
bi-metal strip in the flasher, therefore your left
turn signal doesn't work.

If I'm right, your indicator lamps are mounted in a
metal bumper. Removing them and cleaning up
the mounting points usually fixes this problem.

G.R. Patterson III wrote in rec.autos.tech

>
>
> Does the car have a separate solenoid switch, or is the switch built
> into the starter?

AFAIK, only Ford Motors use a separate solenoid. All other cars that
I have seen, including GM, Chrysler, VW's, almost all Japanese cars,
use a solenoid mounted on the starter.
And the way I have jumped those things was to either put power to
the small wire to activate it, or grab a screw driver and jump
the 2 large connectors, bypassing all the wiring between the
battery and the solenoid, including any safety switches and the
ignition switch. Of course, you have to be sure the car is not in
gear before doing this.

--
Dick #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin

Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:

Robin Banks wrote in rec.autos.tech

> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:50:05 -0500, Dick C >
wrote:
>
>> Of course, you have to be sure the car is not in
>> gear before doing this.
>
> But that takes all the excitement out of it. ;-)

I found that I could handle that level of excitement once.:-0



--
Dick #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin

Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email: