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Consumer Reports and Saturn



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 26th 09, 05:54 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
SMS
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Posts: 467
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

Dan wrote:
> I have a 1996 SL2 with 240k+ miles on it and just the normal wear & tear
> problems. It has been the best new car I have had. I am now looking for an
> SUV and the Consumer Reports negative view of the Saturn Vue concern me. Are
> the Vue's from 2007 and newer worthy of the negative opinion?
>
> My experience with the SL2 makes me want to stick with the Saturn but...



While Consumer Reports is a very good and unbiased source, they do tend
to emphasize safety and reliability over other factors.

For another view look at J.D. Power's long term dependability ratings.

"http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115"

Saturn used to hover just slightly above or slightly below the industry
average, but lately they've moved way down. This is probably one of the
reasons that GM decided to phase out the Saturn brand.
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  #22  
Old February 27th 09, 03:41 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Orval Fairbairn[_2_]
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Posts: 84
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

In article >,
SMS > wrote:

> Dan wrote:
> > I have a 1996 SL2 with 240k+ miles on it and just the normal wear & tear
> > problems. It has been the best new car I have had. I am now looking for an
> > SUV and the Consumer Reports negative view of the Saturn Vue concern me.
> > Are
> > the Vue's from 2007 and newer worthy of the negative opinion?
> >
> > My experience with the SL2 makes me want to stick with the Saturn but...

>
>
> While Consumer Reports is a very good and unbiased source, they do tend
> to emphasize safety and reliability over other factors.
>
> For another view look at J.D. Power's long term dependability ratings.
>
> "http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115"
>
> Saturn used to hover just slightly above or slightly below the industry
> average, but lately they've moved way down. This is probably one of the
> reasons that GM decided to phase out the Saturn brand.


When Saturn came out, it was at the top of the J.D. Power's list.

It was the assimilation of Saturn into the GM (Borg) collective that
started its demise.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
  #23  
Old February 27th 09, 05:51 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Doug Miller[_1_]
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Posts: 262
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

In article >, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>In article >,


>> While Consumer Reports is a very good and unbiased source, they do tend
>> to emphasize safety and reliability over other factors.


Consumer Reports "unbiased"? ROTFLMAO! You've got to be kidding. Their bias
against *all* American-made vehicles has been well-known for decades. They got
caught with their pants down in the late 70s or early 80s when they rated the
Dodge Colt as significantly less reliable than the Mitubishi model to which it
was identical in every respect. That's the most blatant example I'm aware of,
but far from the only one. Unbiased my foot.
  #24  
Old February 27th 09, 09:57 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

>> Saturn used to hover just slightly above or slightly below the industry
>> average, but lately they've moved way down. This is probably one of the
>> reasons that GM decided to phase out the Saturn brand.

>
> When Saturn came out, it was at the top of the J.D. Power's list.


It was on the top of the list for "sales satisfaction," never for
reliability. Despite all the hype, the S series did suffer from some
widespread problems, including problems with brake rotors, oil burning,
and cracked heads.

They had to "integrate" it into GM because there was no way that a
company building only 200K of a model a year could survive and fund new
vehicle development. You need the critical mass of several million units
per year to make any money designing, tooling, manufacturing, marketing,
and selling mass-market, low priced vehicles.
  #25  
Old February 27th 09, 06:19 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
IYM[_2_]
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Posts: 16
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn


"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>>In article >,

>
>>> While Consumer Reports is a very good and unbiased source, they do tend
>>> to emphasize safety and reliability over other factors.

>
> Consumer Reports "unbiased"? ROTFLMAO! You've got to be kidding. Their
> bias
> against *all* American-made vehicles has been well-known for decades. They
> got
> caught with their pants down in the late 70s or early 80s when they rated
> the
> Dodge Colt as significantly less reliable than the Mitubishi model to
> which it
> was identical in every respect. That's the most blatant example I'm aware
> of,
> but far from the only one. Unbiased my foot.


I can't recall Mitsu actually selling any of thier branded models here that
early. I thought they didn't sell under thier own name in the US until the
late '80's...I know they entered a agreement with an American company to
sell thier cars re-badged. The Dodge Colt and Plymouth Champ were
identical, except the Champ (of which we had) had a lot nicer interior,
rims, etc, etc. Was Dodge and Plymouth part of Chrysler at that time or was
AMC/Jeep/Eagle aquired yet? I get confused as to what was the top
company....


  #26  
Old February 27th 09, 07:36 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article >, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>> In article >,

>
>>> While Consumer Reports is a very good and unbiased source, they do tend
>>> to emphasize safety and reliability over other factors.

>
> Consumer Reports "unbiased"? ROTFLMAO! You've got to be kidding. Their bias
> against *all* American-made vehicles has been well-known for decades. They got
> caught with their pants down in the late 70s or early 80s when they rated the
> Dodge Colt as significantly less reliable than the Mitubishi model to which it
> was identical in every respect. That's the most blatant example I'm aware of,
> but far from the only one. Unbiased my foot.


What you don't understand is that the reliability ratings in Consumer
Reports come from their subscribers that fill out surveys, it's not CR's
opinion except when they're projecting reliability on new models based
on similarity with key components of earlier models.

There have been several times when essentially the same vehicle,
marketed by different companies, have had different reliability ratings,
and they'll note that anomaly in their survey results. It's easy to
understand that a typical Mitsubishi buyer may be very different from a
typical Dodge buyer when it comes to how well they maintain the car.

CR has often rated U.S. made vehicles very highly, and has often rated
imported vehicles poorly.
  #27  
Old February 28th 09, 12:33 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Doug Miller[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

In article >, SMS > wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article

> >, Orval
> Fairbairn > wrote:
>>> In article >,

>>
>>>> While Consumer Reports is a very good and unbiased source, they do tend
>>>> to emphasize safety and reliability over other factors.

>>
>> Consumer Reports "unbiased"? ROTFLMAO! You've got to be kidding. Their bias
>> against *all* American-made vehicles has been well-known for decades. They

> got
>> caught with their pants down in the late 70s or early 80s when they rated the

>
>> Dodge Colt as significantly less reliable than the Mitubishi model to which

> it
>> was identical in every respect. That's the most blatant example I'm aware of,

>
>> but far from the only one. Unbiased my foot.

>
>What you don't understand is that the reliability ratings in Consumer
>Reports come from their subscribers that fill out surveys, it's not CR's
>opinion except when they're projecting reliability on new models based
>on similarity with key components of earlier models.


CR's surveys are entirely self-selected, which right off the bat makes them
completely invalid from a scientific standpoint.

>
>There have been several times when essentially the same vehicle,
>marketed by different companies, have had different reliability ratings,
>and they'll note that anomaly in their survey results.


They note that *now*. They didn't used to, not until after they got caught
with their pants down on the Colt and a few others.

> It's easy to
>understand that a typical Mitsubishi buyer may be very different from a
>typical Dodge buyer when it comes to how well they maintain the car.


Or how they respond to surveys.
>
>CR has often rated U.S. made vehicles very highly, and has often rated
>imported vehicles poorly.


"Often" is not the correct spelling of "sometimes".
  #28  
Old February 28th 09, 01:28 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

Doug Miller wrote:

> CR's surveys are entirely self-selected, which right off the bat makes them
> completely invalid from a scientific standpoint.


No, it simply makes them not double-blind surveys. Unless you think that
a Saturn driver is more likely to complain about defects than a Toyota
driver, the surveys are valid even though they're not double-blind. In
fact you could argue that a Toyota owner would have higher expectations
than a GM owner and be _more_ likely to complain about problems.

> "Often" is not the correct spelling of "sometimes".


Because often is the proper word to describe the reality.

It's easy to understand why some people get mad at the CR surveys and
attempt to dismiss them simply because they are not the "perfect" survey
where they would call 100,000 people at random and ask them all the
questions in the survey, but it doesn't make their survey "completely
invalid."

And of course other publications and organizations reach largely the
same conclusions with their own surveys, i.e. J.D. Power. It's not like
CR is telling anyone anything that numerous other organizations haven't
confirmed to be true.
  #29  
Old February 28th 09, 07:28 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Doug Miller[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

In article >, SMS > wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> CR's surveys are entirely self-selected, which right off the bat makes them
>> completely invalid from a scientific standpoint.

>
>No, it simply makes them not double-blind surveys. Unless you think that
> a Saturn driver is more likely to complain about defects than a Toyota
>driver, the surveys are valid even though they're not double-blind. In
>fact you could argue that a Toyota owner would have higher expectations
>than a GM owner and be _more_ likely to complain about problems.


Sorry, that's not correct. Self-selected surveys are scientifically invalid.
Period.
>
>> "Often" is not the correct spelling of "sometimes".

>
>Because often is the proper word to describe the reality.


You go on believing that if it makes you feel better.
>
>It's easy to understand why some people get mad at the CR surveys and
>attempt to dismiss them simply because they are not the "perfect" survey


No, many people dismiss CR's surveys because they bear much less relationship
to reality than CR likes to pretend they do.

>where they would call 100,000 people at random and ask them all the
>questions in the survey, but it doesn't make their survey "completely
>invalid."


No, what makes the surveys completely invalid from a statistical standpoint is
the self-selected sampling. That isn't statistically valid. Period.
>
>And of course other publications and organizations reach largely the
>same conclusions with their own surveys, i.e. J.D. Power. It's not like
>CR is telling anyone anything that numerous other organizations haven't
>confirmed to be true.


Actually, it is like that. JD Power consistently ranks American cars much
higher than CR does -- like I said, CR's bias against American-made cars has
been obvious and widely known for decades. Your unwillingness, or inability,
to recognize that does not change it.
  #30  
Old February 28th 09, 09:00 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default Consumer Reports and Saturn

Doug Miller wrote:

> Actually, it is like that. JD Power consistently ranks American cars much
> higher than CR does -- like I said, CR's bias against American-made cars has
> been obvious and widely known for decades.


You just go on believing that if it makes you happy. But it's not
reality, it's sour grapes.

 




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