Saturn on GM's chopping block?

The rumor mill is saying that, I guess we will find out next week.

On Nov 29, 10:41*am, stonej > wrote:
> The rumor mill is saying that, I guess we will find out next week.

I'm betting gm will try to sell it to the chinese, followed by the
east indians; if there are no takers it'll be toast ( development
costs vs poor sales)

just a rumor for now. lots of chatter going on at SaturnFans.com. nothing to
see here.
--
marx404
<all gmail posts blocked>
_________________
"stonej" > wrote in message
...
> The rumor mill is saying that, I guess we will find out next week.

On Nov 29, 9:03*pm, "marx404" > wrote:
> just a rumor for now. lots of chatter going on at SaturnFans.com. nothing to
> see here.
> --
> marx404
> <all gmail posts blocked>
> _________________"stonej" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > The rumor mill is saying that, I guess we will find out next week.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

where there's smoke there's fire

stonej turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

> The rumor mill is saying that, I guess we will find out next week.

Wouldn't be suprised.

Back when Saturn was started, it was a new experiment and a "different way"
of doing business.

Now it is just a GM divsion selling European models and taking up real
estate.

I'd be happy if we could have the Opel Vectra or - even better - an Opel
Kadett here in the us!

"Wir sind die Jungs von der Opel-Gang!"


--
www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org

Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee
Hock

One of my neighbors is sales manager for a Saturn dealer. He indicated that
while it and most of the brands will go away, the popular models will stay.

He also said the only Opel they sell is the Astra and they are not moving
many. All the other lines are domestically designed and produced.

They did shut down the Spring Hill non-union plant as part of the
negotiations in the last concession talks.

The US car makers complain about foreign sales but continue to import all
their small models because they cannot find a way to make them cheaply.

Until they cut the fat and find a way out from the $1,800 per car retireree
benefits burden, I can't see any way for them to compete.






"PerfectReign" > wrote in message
...
> stonej turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:
>
>> The rumor mill is saying that, I guess we will find out next week.
>
> Wouldn't be suprised.
>
> Back when Saturn was started, it was a new experiment and a "different
> way"
> of doing business.
>
> Now it is just a GM divsion selling European models and taking up real
> estate.
>
> I'd be happy if we could have the Opel Vectra or - even better - an Opel
> Kadett here in the us!
>
> "Wir sind die Jungs von der Opel-Gang!"
>
>
> --
> www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org
>
> Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. -
> Dee
> Hock

Jay R turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

> One of my neighbors is sales manager for a Saturn dealer. Â*He indicated
> that while it and most of the brands will go away, the popular models will
> stay.
>
> He also said the only Opel they sell is the Astra and they are not moving
> many. All the other lines are domestically designed and produced.
>
> They did shut down the Spring Hill non-union plant as part of the
> negotiations in the last concession talks.
>
> The US car makers complain about foreign sales but continue to import all
> their small models because they cannot find a way to make them cheaply.
>
> Until they cut the fat and find a way out from the $1,800 per car
> retireree benefits burden, I can't see any way for them to compete.

I agree.

Just saw this (and posted on the Chevy Avalanche Fan Club site...)

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fi-sa...tory?track=rss

GM may pull plug on Saturn
The brand was created to compete with efficient imports but has never shown
a profit, making it vulnerable as automakers struggle.
By Ken Bensinger

December 4, 2008

General Motors Corp. launched its Saturn division in 1985 as a "different
kind of car company," one given the task to sell cars in a new way and
compete with Japanese juggernauts like Honda and Toyota.

The idea, simply, was to make money on the small, economical vehicles that
had always been losers for the Detroit giant.

Now GM may be abandoning the brand altogether.

The sweeping restructuring plan GM released this week in hopes of squeezing
$18 billion in aid out of Congress includes a pledge to "explore
alternatives" for Saturn.

GM officials say options include overhauling the lineup, partnering with
another carmaker, selling the brand and, potentially, sending Saturn off to
the junkyard.

GM's Swedish luxury brand Saab might also be sold, and Pontiac could be
transformed into a "niche" brand inside other dealerships.

But the decision to consider pulling the plug on Saturn, the agile little
start-up that GM developed to reinvent the way it produced and sold cars,
is a bitter reminder of just how deep the automaker's troubles run.

Saturn, after all, was created to do almost everything that GM, industry
experts and many members of Congress say a modern car company has to do to
survive in today's market: Make a limited range of small, fuel-efficient
cars, then sell them through a small network of dealers for a profit.

There was just one hitch: GM says Saturn never made a profit.

At its plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., Saturn made simple, unfussy cars
designed to appeal to penny-wise drivers. But the price point of the
vehicles -- in recent years as low as $12,000 on some models -- was far too
low to cover the cost of producing and marketing them, analysts say.

In response, the company raised prices substantially, to an average of about
$17,000 two years ago and about $24,000 today. To accomplish that, however,
the company had to stock the lineup with larger, fancier vehicles like the
hulking Outlook sport utility vehicle.

The Outlook, which seats eight, starts at $31,000 and seemingly has nothing
in common with the no-fuss economy sedans like the S-Series, which debuted
in 1991 with a sticker price of $7,995.

"To broadly stereotype, Saturn buyers are single women teachers," said Eric
Noble, president of Car Lab, an industry consulting firm in Orange. "They
don't need an eight-person SUV."

So far this year, Saturn sales are down 21% from 2007 levels, compared with
a 16% drop for the auto industry as a whole.

Two years ago, GM announced plans to bring much of the lineup from its
German division, Opel, to the U.S. and rebadge them as Saturns. The idea
was to deliver high-styled yet efficient European-made cars that would
compete with the likes of the Honda Accord and the Toyota Corolla.

The first such import, the Saturn Astra, arrived on dealer lots in January.
But it sells fully loaded for just $21,000, and as the euro skyrocketed
against the dollar earlier this year, the Astra became wildly unprofitable
at that price.

Through November, 10,813 Astras had been sold, fewer than the BMW 7-series,
which starts at $77,000.

Each Astra cost GM "several thousand dollars more than they had anticipated"
to get to market, said Ken Croft, general manager of Saturn of Cerritos,
the largest Saturn store west of the Mississippi.

Croft's sales have declined 38% this year, forcing the dealership to combine
its new and used-car sales staff and to lay off three salespeople.

On Wednesday morning, the lone customer on his lot was Bob Suhajda, a Los
Angeles-area accountant. Suhajda said he preferred U.S.-made cars and would
be reluctant to buy a Saturn if it came under foreign ownership.

"I came to Saturn because it's an American product," said Suhajda, who was
eyeing the Skye convertible, a two-seat roadster. "If a Chinese or Indian
company bought it, I would hesitate."

Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president for North American sales, service and
marketing, said it was too early to be sure of what exactly would be done
with Saturn. But in light of the company's woes, he said, "it's very
difficult to say we can afford the luxury of keeping brands that are not
profitable."

And Saturn, LaNeve added, was never profitable for GM.

To find the black, GM plans to thin Saturn's dealer ranks, bring in more
European cars it could rebrand as Saturns such as the subcompact Opel
Agila, and kill existing models like the Aura -- a near carbon-copy of the
Chevy Malibu.

If those efforts fail, a sale might be the next option.

That could be complicated, experts say, because Opel has been ramping up
production to supply cars to Saturn in the U.S. If the brand is sold,
however, GM probably would insist that the buyer absorb those vehicles so
that its profitable European unit would not be stuck with a glut of cars.

LaNeve and other GM officials say they hope to avoid a sale. But according
to an individual familiar with GM operations, who spoke under condition of
anonymity because of a business relationship with the company, GM had
already prepared sales prospectuses for both Saturn and Saab long before it
delivered its plan to Congress.

The final option, LaNeve said, would be to eliminate the brand, something he
says GM does not want to do. That may be partly because its contracts with
its 211 dealers (who operate 425 stores) require payouts when a brand is
terminated. GM paid more than $1 billion to kill Oldsmobile early this
decade.

Another hurdle would be the unusual franchise agreement GM has with Saturn
dealers.

With other brands, GM has unilateral decision-making power. But Saturn
dealers have eight seats on a 16-member Franchise Operating Team and have a
vote in major business moves, such as the decision this year to allow all
GM dealers to sell certified pre-owned vehicles from all other GM brands.

That structure gives dealers such as Michael Greene, owner of Saturn of
Whittier and Harris Buick Pontiac GMC, some reason for optimism. He lost
his Oldsmobile franchise in 2001 when that brand was killed, but in
exchange GM helped him acquire the Buick Pontiac GMC franchise.

"I don't believe that Saturn will go away," Greene said. "I doubt very
seriously they will close a brand they have put this much time and money
into."

One of Saturn's famously loyal customers is Chelsea Sexton of El Segundo,
co-founder of Lightning Rod, which advocates alternative vehicles.

Sexton worked for Saturn in the early days, spending three years as a
saleswoman starting in 1993 and staying on with the company in marketing,
ultimately working in the development of GM's first electric car before
leaving in 2001.

Now she finds it hard to believe that the brand may go extinct.

"It was one of the only brands that GM has that tried new things and
introduced new kinds of products," said Sexton, who is driving her eighth
Saturn. "To kill that off seems absurd."

--
www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org

Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee
Hock

We have been happy with them.

Started with a second hand SL2 for my older son when he got out of college..
Bought an 05 Ion for my wife, gave that to #2 son when he went off to school
and replaced it with a Vue. I bought a Sky in late 07 to mend my mid life
crisis.

They have all been great.

We have only had one warranty problem with the ignition switch acting up
when it is cold and enabling an anti theft feature which keeps the car from
starting for like a half hour.

The article is right, there are enough big cars out there. They should
focus on the little guys to compete with the Psions, Yaris and Versa'a.

Small, cheap, and sporty.




"PerfectReign" > wrote in message
...
> Jay R turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:
>
>> One of my neighbors is sales manager for a Saturn dealer. He indicated
>> that while it and most of the brands will go away, the popular models
>> will
>> stay.
>>
>> He also said the only Opel they sell is the Astra and they are not moving
>> many. All the other lines are domestically designed and produced.
>>
>> They did shut down the Spring Hill non-union plant as part of the
>> negotiations in the last concession talks.
>>
>> The US car makers complain about foreign sales but continue to import all
>> their small models because they cannot find a way to make them cheaply.
>>
>> Until they cut the fat and find a way out from the $1,800 per car
>> retireree benefits burden, I can't see any way for them to compete.
>
> I agree.
>
> Just saw this (and posted on the Chevy Avalanche Fan Club site...)
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fi-sa...tory?track=rss
>
> GM may pull plug on Saturn
> The brand was created to compete with efficient imports but has never
> shown
> a profit, making it vulnerable as automakers struggle.
> By Ken Bensinger
>
> December 4, 2008
>
> General Motors Corp. launched its Saturn division in 1985 as a "different
> kind of car company," one given the task to sell cars in a new way and
> compete with Japanese juggernauts like Honda and Toyota.
>
> The idea, simply, was to make money on the small, economical vehicles that
> had always been losers for the Detroit giant.
>
> Now GM may be abandoning the brand altogether.
>
> The sweeping restructuring plan GM released this week in hopes of
> squeezing
> $18 billion in aid out of Congress includes a pledge to "explore
> alternatives" for Saturn.
>
> GM officials say options include overhauling the lineup, partnering with
> another carmaker, selling the brand and, potentially, sending Saturn off
> to
> the junkyard.
>
> GM's Swedish luxury brand Saab might also be sold, and Pontiac could be
> transformed into a "niche" brand inside other dealerships.
>
> But the decision to consider pulling the plug on Saturn, the agile little
> start-up that GM developed to reinvent the way it produced and sold cars,
> is a bitter reminder of just how deep the automaker's troubles run.
>
> Saturn, after all, was created to do almost everything that GM, industry
> experts and many members of Congress say a modern car company has to do to
> survive in today's market: Make a limited range of small, fuel-efficient
> cars, then sell them through a small network of dealers for a profit.
>
> There was just one hitch: GM says Saturn never made a profit.
>
> At its plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., Saturn made simple, unfussy cars
> designed to appeal to penny-wise drivers. But the price point of the
> vehicles -- in recent years as low as $12,000 on some models -- was far
> too
> low to cover the cost of producing and marketing them, analysts say.
>
> In response, the company raised prices substantially, to an average of
> about
> $17,000 two years ago and about $24,000 today. To accomplish that,
> however,
> the company had to stock the lineup with larger, fancier vehicles like the
> hulking Outlook sport utility vehicle.
>
> The Outlook, which seats eight, starts at $31,000 and seemingly has
> nothing
> in common with the no-fuss economy sedans like the S-Series, which debuted
> in 1991 with a sticker price of $7,995.
>
> "To broadly stereotype, Saturn buyers are single women teachers," said
> Eric
> Noble, president of Car Lab, an industry consulting firm in Orange. "They
> don't need an eight-person SUV."
>
> So far this year, Saturn sales are down 21% from 2007 levels, compared
> with
> a 16% drop for the auto industry as a whole.
>
> Two years ago, GM announced plans to bring much of the lineup from its
> German division, Opel, to the U.S. and rebadge them as Saturns. The idea
> was to deliver high-styled yet efficient European-made cars that would
> compete with the likes of the Honda Accord and the Toyota Corolla.
>
> The first such import, the Saturn Astra, arrived on dealer lots in
> January.
> But it sells fully loaded for just $21,000, and as the euro skyrocketed
> against the dollar earlier this year, the Astra became wildly unprofitable
> at that price.
>
> Through November, 10,813 Astras had been sold, fewer than the BMW
> 7-series,
> which starts at $77,000.
>
> Each Astra cost GM "several thousand dollars more than they had
> anticipated"
> to get to market, said Ken Croft, general manager of Saturn of Cerritos,
> the largest Saturn store west of the Mississippi.
>
> Croft's sales have declined 38% this year, forcing the dealership to
> combine
> its new and used-car sales staff and to lay off three salespeople.
>
> On Wednesday morning, the lone customer on his lot was Bob Suhajda, a Los
> Angeles-area accountant. Suhajda said he preferred U.S.-made cars and
> would
> be reluctant to buy a Saturn if it came under foreign ownership.
>
> "I came to Saturn because it's an American product," said Suhajda, who was
> eyeing the Skye convertible, a two-seat roadster. "If a Chinese or Indian
> company bought it, I would hesitate."
>
> Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president for North American sales, service and
> marketing, said it was too early to be sure of what exactly would be done
> with Saturn. But in light of the company's woes, he said, "it's very
> difficult to say we can afford the luxury of keeping brands that are not
> profitable."
>
> And Saturn, LaNeve added, was never profitable for GM.
>
> To find the black, GM plans to thin Saturn's dealer ranks, bring in more
> European cars it could rebrand as Saturns such as the subcompact Opel
> Agila, and kill existing models like the Aura -- a near carbon-copy of the
> Chevy Malibu.
>
> If those efforts fail, a sale might be the next option.
>
> That could be complicated, experts say, because Opel has been ramping up
> production to supply cars to Saturn in the U.S. If the brand is sold,
> however, GM probably would insist that the buyer absorb those vehicles so
> that its profitable European unit would not be stuck with a glut of cars.
>
> LaNeve and other GM officials say they hope to avoid a sale. But according
> to an individual familiar with GM operations, who spoke under condition of
> anonymity because of a business relationship with the company, GM had
> already prepared sales prospectuses for both Saturn and Saab long before
> it
> delivered its plan to Congress.
>
> The final option, LaNeve said, would be to eliminate the brand, something
> he
> says GM does not want to do. That may be partly because its contracts with
> its 211 dealers (who operate 425 stores) require payouts when a brand is
> terminated. GM paid more than $1 billion to kill Oldsmobile early this
> decade.
>
> Another hurdle would be the unusual franchise agreement GM has with Saturn
> dealers.
>
> With other brands, GM has unilateral decision-making power. But Saturn
> dealers have eight seats on a 16-member Franchise Operating Team and have
> a
> vote in major business moves, such as the decision this year to allow all
> GM dealers to sell certified pre-owned vehicles from all other GM brands.
>
> That structure gives dealers such as Michael Greene, owner of Saturn of
> Whittier and Harris Buick Pontiac GMC, some reason for optimism. He lost
> his Oldsmobile franchise in 2001 when that brand was killed, but in
> exchange GM helped him acquire the Buick Pontiac GMC franchise.
>
> "I don't believe that Saturn will go away," Greene said. "I doubt very
> seriously they will close a brand they have put this much time and money
> into."
>
> One of Saturn's famously loyal customers is Chelsea Sexton of El Segundo,
> co-founder of Lightning Rod, which advocates alternative vehicles.
>
> Sexton worked for Saturn in the early days, spending three years as a
> saleswoman starting in 1993 and staying on with the company in marketing,
> ultimately working in the development of GM's first electric car before
> leaving in 2001.
>
> Now she finds it hard to believe that the brand may go extinct.
>
> "It was one of the only brands that GM has that tried new things and
> introduced new kinds of products," said Sexton, who is driving her eighth
> Saturn. "To kill that off seems absurd."
>
> --
> www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org
>
> Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. -
> Dee
> Hock

Jay R wrote:
> One of my neighbors is sales manager for a Saturn dealer. He indicated that
> while it and most of the brands will go away, the popular models will stay.
>
> He also said the only Opel they sell is the Astra and they are not moving
> many. All the other lines are domestically designed and produced.

I own a 2007 Saturn Sky and I believe it is really an Opel GT, despite
the GM marketing hype to the contrary. If it is an American design, then
why does it have those stupid German seat back adjusters? I once owned a
POC 68 Volkswagen Beetle and it had them! (I have driven current models
and still hate Volkswagen To this day)

As a former NIASE certified mechanic I believe I have the right to bash
German cars. I may be 75% German, but I'm not stupid (well, maybe only
75% stupid).

Back to the original topic. If GM cans the Saturn brand, then I think
Saturn dealers should become Opel dealers.

Gyz

Wow, I thought this thread was old and had died already, but it seems not
and neither has all the mis-information.

First, Spring Hill has not closed. As the ION was phased out to be replaced
with the Belgian-built Astra the plant was retooled by GM to build the third
variation of the Outlook which is the Chevy Traverse. The other two are GMC
Acadia and Buick Enclave.

Second, The SKY is NOT an Opel, it is actualy a shared platform derived from
the Pontiac Solstice and was designed originally as a prototype for Vauxhall
UK and first shown at the Frankfurt Auto Show back in 2004 and built only
for Saturn. A very small percentage of SKYs are rebadged in Wilmington as
Opel GTs and Daewoo G2X (also owned by GM) and shipped overseas. Both
Solstice and SKY are built side by side in Wilmington DE. Yes, obviously
there is European influence.

Third, the Astra. Poorly marketed replacement built in Antwerp Belgium (in
the same factory that most Astras are built) and retrofitted to US standards
with only minor touches like cupholders. Other than that, it is a true
German built Opel Astra. The 1.8L engine is one and the same of the many
engine choices already available in Opel and Vauxhall models world-wide.
Opel is a 125 year old GM owned company which builds cars all over the
world. The US was the last company to recieve the Astra. Buick tried it's
hand with selling Opels in the early '70's and was unsucessful. GM says it
ran out of budget and therefore never advertised the new Astra much under
the Saturn name and due to high shipping tarrifs GM overpriced the car which
combined led to poor sales. The German-based Astra has been the second most
popular sold car in Europe next to VW's for the last 10 years. Saturn/GM is
now correcting it's pricing mistakes on the Atsra and it can be bought for
less than an Aveo. The Astra is now one of Saturn's highest quality cars in
fit and finish. I own one.

Fourth. Saturn is not dead. GM is in talks with Store owners about future
possibilities involving Saturn and there are many possibilities. It's just
not a cut and dried conversation, because nobody knows, not even all the
news media you all are reading and those who may know aren't talking at all.

Other than the Outlook, the new Saturn line-up is a shared platform with the
Opel/Vauxhall family. Astra = Astra, Aura = Vectra, VUE = Antara, SKY = Opel
GT. If you desire more information, Wikipedia has some very good and factual
information.