Off to car heaven

"me" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:58:58 -0000, "DervMan" >
> wrote:
>
>>"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dave U. Random" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Moneyblog http://is.gd/jYqP
>>>>
>>>> Say goodbye to Saturn. And Saab and Hummer, for that
>>>> matter. Pontiac, too, for all intents and purposes.
>>>
>>> Curious that they should wish to rid themselves of 2 of their most
>>> promising (and best styled IMHO ) lines ( Hummer excluded ).
>>>
>>> When will the Americans ever learn ?
>>
>>You don't appear to understand the American market...
>
> It's not American's, per se. It's GM. Most Americans have a clue about
> cars, after many years of ignorance for most of them. Slowly they got
> a clue. That's why the "big three" are now going down the tubes.

You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
buy American. The numbers are declining, but are still there. Saturns and
Saabs are not American enough to appeal to this group. They're also not
European enough to appeal to those drivers who want something European
(typically meaning BMW or VAG stuff as Mercedes seems to have always been
its own appeal). Then there's the growing numbers who buy Japanese because
"it works."

The same thing sort of happened in the UK; when the population realised that
most of the home-built cars really were not put together properly and really
did apart after four years but the European / Japanese stuff was still
working, trends changed. Many Rovers were considered to be good cars in
their day, usually had design faults or characteristics, but weren't so
"meh" to drive as something Japanese nor as expensive as something European.

Ahhh I remember the import restrictions on Japanese cars in the early
1980s...

--
The DervMan
www.dervman.com

DervMan wrote:
> "me" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:58:58 -0000, "DervMan" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Dave U. Random" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Moneyblog http://is.gd/jYqP
>>>>>
>>>>> Say goodbye to Saturn. And Saab and Hummer, for that
>>>>> matter. Pontiac, too, for all intents and purposes.
>>>> Curious that they should wish to rid themselves of 2 of their most
>>>> promising (and best styled IMHO ) lines ( Hummer excluded ).
>>>>
>>>> When will the Americans ever learn ?
>>> You don't appear to understand the American market...
>> It's not American's, per se. It's GM. Most Americans have a clue about
>> cars, after many years of ignorance for most of them. Slowly they got
>> a clue. That's why the "big three" are now going down the tubes.
>
> You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
> buy American. The numbers are declining, but are still there. Saturns and
> Saabs are not American enough to appeal to this group. They're also not
> European enough to appeal to those drivers who want something European
> (typically meaning BMW or VAG stuff as Mercedes seems to have always been
> its own appeal). Then there's the growing numbers who buy Japanese because
> "it works."
>
> The same thing sort of happened in the UK; when the population realised that
> most of the home-built cars really were not put together properly and really
> did apart after four years but the European / Japanese stuff was still
> working, trends changed. Many Rovers were considered to be good cars in
> their day, usually had design faults or characteristics, but weren't so
> "meh" to drive as something Japanese nor as expensive as something European.
>
> Ahhh I remember the import restrictions on Japanese cars in the early
> 1980s...
>

The restrictions for Japanese cars still exist across the EU as far as I
know (import quotas), and they whey the Japanese bypassed that was to
set up factories within the EU. Imported cars are still subject to quotas.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:23:03 -0000, DervMan cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:


>
> You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
> buy American.

There is not really any "significant" number of the population that will
only buy American. Never has been - at least not for the past 30 years.
There have been buy American campaigns, but outside of those groups that
fostered those campaigns, there has never really been a successful movement
to do so. There certainly is not now.

> The numbers are declining, but are still there. Saturns and
> Saabs are not American enough to appeal to this group.

Saturn was designed to appeal to a very narrow group and it did so. It's
own reputation is what hurt Saturn. Saab is not an American car regardless
who owns it. Saab has though, held quite steadily to it's market segment.
It never did develop a large market segment, but not because it wasn't
American enough.

> They're also not
> European enough to appeal to those drivers who want something European
> (typically meaning BMW or VAG stuff as Mercedes seems to have always been
> its own appeal). Then there's the growing numbers who buy Japanese because
> "it works."

I think you are over analyzing this stuff.


--

-Mike-

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:53:59 -0500, Mike Marlow
> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:23:03 -0000, DervMan cast forth these pearls of
>wisdom...:
>
>
>>
>> You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
>> buy American.
>
>There is not really any "significant" number of the population that will
>only buy American. Never has been - at least not for the past 30 years.
>There have been buy American campaigns, but outside of those groups that
>fostered those campaigns, there has never really been a successful movement
>to do so. There certainly is not now.
>
Baloney. I know many people who will only buy Ford, GM or Chrysler.
A significant number of people.
If you don't know this it's only because of the company you keep.
But you don't have to personally know these people.
http://promomagazine.com/research/ca...american-0109/
"One-third of respondents to the survey conducted by Kelley Blue Book
Marketing Research said they would only buy cars produced in America,
while 12% indicated interest in buying Japanese-made cars and 5%
expressed a preference for German vehicles."

If that's not clear enough, another take
http://www.wmur.com/automotive/18445529/detail.html
"One-third of new-vehicle shoppers say they would only consider cars
from U.S.-based manufacturers such as General Motors, Ford or
Chrysler, and that they would not consider vehicles from any other
countries."

One third is a significant number.
And that number has been much higher less than thirty years ago.
If you have something to dispute except opinion, fire away.

--Vic

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:58:09 -0600, Vic Smith cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:53:59 -0500, Mike Marlow
> > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:23:03 -0000, DervMan cast forth these pearls of
>>wisdom...:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
>>> buy American.
>>
>>There is not really any "significant" number of the population that will
>>only buy American. Never has been - at least not for the past 30 years.
>>There have been buy American campaigns, but outside of those groups that
>>fostered those campaigns, there has never really been a successful movement
>>to do so. There certainly is not now.
>>
> Baloney. I know many people who will only buy Ford, GM or Chrysler.
> A significant number of people.
> If you don't know this it's only because of the company you keep.
> But you don't have to personally know these people.
> http://promomagazine.com/research/ca...american-0109/
> "One-third of respondents to the survey conducted by Kelley Blue Book
> Marketing Research said they would only buy cars produced in America,
> while 12% indicated interest in buying Japanese-made cars and 5%
> expressed a preference for German vehicles."

Ok - I'll conceed to a certain point. I'll contend though that it is more
because of what they like in those cars than it is because of a
nationalistic thing - which I may have mistakenly read into the original
post. I was responding to that nationalisitic thought - which may not have
been what the OP intended in his post.

>
> If that's not clear enough, another take
> http://www.wmur.com/automotive/18445529/detail.html
> "One-third of new-vehicle shoppers say they would only consider cars
> from U.S.-based manufacturers such as General Motors, Ford or
> Chrysler, and that they would not consider vehicles from any other
> countries."

Ok - I'll conceed again. That percentage actually surprises me somewhat.

>
> One third is a significant number.
> And that number has been much higher less than thirty years ago.
> If you have something to dispute except opinion, fire away.
>

Relax Vic. Geezus - you're getting too fired up over this. It's only a
usenet conversation - complete with opinions.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:06:11 -0500, Mike Marlow
> wrote:


>>
>> If that's not clear enough, another take
>> http://www.wmur.com/automotive/18445529/detail.html
>> "One-third of new-vehicle shoppers say they would only consider cars
>> from U.S.-based manufacturers such as General Motors, Ford or
>> Chrysler, and that they would not consider vehicles from any other
>> countries."
>
>Ok - I'll conceed again. That percentage actually surprises me somewhat.
>
>>
>> One third is a significant number.
>> And that number has been much higher less than thirty years ago.
>> If you have something to dispute except opinion, fire away.
>>
>
>Relax Vic. Geezus - you're getting too fired up over this. It's only a
>usenet conversation - complete with opinions.

No anger intended. Sorry if it sounded that way.
But it is actually a hot button of mine, as I buy American for
nationalistic reasons. And that quote above says I'm not alone.
"Not consider" seems to imply that,
At the same time, I'm highly ****ed at the "Big 3" for producing so
much crap, and don't begrudge others for going foreign.
Since I buy used, and know what to pick, I get very good value in
buying GM. So I can't say it's *all* nationalistic. Some is just
being frugal with cars.
If I were a new car buyer, especially one who got burned by the 3, I
might think differently.
So until I kick in more than my normal few grand for a car, my
credibility is suspect.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:06:11 -0500, Mike Marlow
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> If that's not clear enough, another take
>>> http://www.wmur.com/automotive/18445529/detail.html
>>> "One-third of new-vehicle shoppers say they would only consider cars
>>> from U.S.-based manufacturers such as General Motors, Ford or
>>> Chrysler, and that they would not consider vehicles from any other
>>> countries."
>>
>>Ok - I'll conceed again. That percentage actually surprises me somewhat.
>>
>>>
>>> One third is a significant number.
>>> And that number has been much higher less than thirty years ago.
>>> If you have something to dispute except opinion, fire away.
>>>
>>
>>Relax Vic. Geezus - you're getting too fired up over this. It's only a
>>usenet conversation - complete with opinions.
>
> No anger intended. Sorry if it sounded that way.
> But it is actually a hot button of mine, as I buy American for
> nationalistic reasons. And that quote above says I'm not alone.
> "Not consider" seems to imply that,
> At the same time, I'm highly ****ed at the "Big 3" for producing so
> much crap, and don't begrudge others for going foreign.
> Since I buy used, and know what to pick, I get very good value in
> buying GM. So I can't say it's *all* nationalistic. Some is just
> being frugal with cars.
> If I were a new car buyer, especially one who got burned by the 3, I
> might think differently.
> So until I kick in more than my normal few grand for a car, my
> credibility is suspect.
>
> --Vic

If you buy American for nationalistic reasons, lets define this further. Do
you mean world wide headquarters are in the USA?

I ask that as I don't believe there is a 100% American vehicle in common
consumer market today, not a one. If it is American content you are after,
you might be surprized the Japanese named branded often have higher NA
content that others even the D3. Which also raises, did the parts come from
US, Mexico or Canada? In a typical vehicle today, any manuafacturer there
are at least 10 countries involved. Electronics from Tiawan, bolts for
Japan, seats from Mexico as was the engine block. Steel from China, frames
from Canada, rubber from Brazil, etc.

So if shopping American made is your goal, could be a Japanese name to go
with it. The D3 myth is that only D3 make American went by the wayside over
30 years ago and has been decaying ever since to a point that judging by the
name for American content no longer is a truism.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:30:48 -0700, "Canuck57" >
wrote:


>
>If you buy American for nationalistic reasons, lets define this further. Do
>you mean world wide headquarters are in the USA?
>
It's really simple. Whatever product provides the most work here.
I could not care less about corporations - or shareholders.

>I ask that as I don't believe there is a 100% American vehicle in common
>consumer market today, not a one. If it is American content you are after,
>you might be surprized the Japanese named branded often have higher NA
>content that others even the D3. Which also raises, did the parts come from
>US, Mexico or Canada? In a typical vehicle today, any manuafacturer there
>are at least 10 countries involved. Electronics from Tiawan, bolts for
>Japan, seats from Mexico as was the engine block. Steel from China, frames
>from Canada, rubber from Brazil, etc.
>
Of course. That's why the U.S. is essentially bankrupt.

>So if shopping American made is your goal, could be a Japanese name to go
>with it. The D3 myth is that only D3 make American went by the wayside over
>30 years ago and has been decaying ever since to a point that judging by the
>name for American content no longer is a truism.
>
That's BS on the 30 years. Check your facts.
If it had been that long the balance of trade deficit would have got
us to where we now are years ago.
It took little longer than 20 years for unbridled globalism to do us
in.
It was mid-80's before a Jap car became a sales leader here.
Think it was the Camry in 85 or 87.
Probably all were imported from Japan.
Even then the Camry was considerably outsold by the GM equivalent when
Chevy/Buick/Old same frame models were combined.
That would be Chevy Celebrity/Olds Ciera/Pontiac 6000.
Hell, the Jap plants here were importing most of their parts from
Japan well into the 90's.
I would buy a Jap car that provided more work here before I'd buy a
mostly Mexican or Canadian made "American" car.
BTW, I consider Canada a foreign country too, and our trade deficit
with them should be balanced.
Balance of trade is not a difficult concept to understand.
Others can do what suits them.

--Vic

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:52:26 -0600, Vic Smith cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:


>
> No anger intended. Sorry if it sounded that way.
> But it is actually a hot button of mine, as I buy American for
> nationalistic reasons. And that quote above says I'm not alone.
> "Not consider" seems to imply that,
> At the same time, I'm highly ****ed at the "Big 3" for producing so
> much crap, and don't begrudge others for going foreign.
> Since I buy used, and know what to pick, I get very good value in
> buying GM. So I can't say it's *all* nationalistic. Some is just
> being frugal with cars.
> If I were a new car buyer, especially one who got burned by the 3, I
> might think differently.
> So until I kick in more than my normal few grand for a car, my
> credibility is suspect.
>

Amazing - we buy in exactly the same way. I did switch from GM to Hyundai
for the last two cars, and it's been good for me, but I was
dyed-in-the-wool GM for the longest time - over 35 years. Like you, I got
really ****ed at GM for the manner in which they treated customers and
ignored longstanding problems with their designs. I too only buy used
(usually 1-2 model years old, 25K miles or so typically). I've had great
GM cars, but the amount of repeat work I used to do on them finally ****ed
me off enough that I tried something else. Now - I wish they'd get rid of
the Board and Wagoner, and get back to making the great cars that they are
capable of, and standing behind them.


--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:52:26 -0600, Vic Smith cast forth these pearls of
> wisdom...:
>
>
>>
>> No anger intended. Sorry if it sounded that way.
>> But it is actually a hot button of mine, as I buy American for
>> nationalistic reasons. And that quote above says I'm not alone.
>> "Not consider" seems to imply that,
>> At the same time, I'm highly ****ed at the "Big 3" for producing so
>> much crap, and don't begrudge others for going foreign.
>> Since I buy used, and know what to pick, I get very good value in
>> buying GM. So I can't say it's *all* nationalistic. Some is just
>> being frugal with cars.
>> If I were a new car buyer, especially one who got burned by the 3, I
>> might think differently.
>> So until I kick in more than my normal few grand for a car, my
>> credibility is suspect.
>>
>
> Amazing - we buy in exactly the same way. I did switch from GM to Hyundai
> for the last two cars, and it's been good for me, but I was
> dyed-in-the-wool GM for the longest time - over 35 years. Like you, I got
> really ****ed at GM for the manner in which they treated customers and
> ignored longstanding problems with their designs. I too only buy used
> (usually 1-2 model years old, 25K miles or so typically). I've had great
> GM cars, but the amount of repeat work I used to do on them finally ****ed
> me off enough that I tried something else. Now - I wish they'd get rid of
> the Board and Wagoner, and get back to making the great cars that they are
> capable of, and standing behind them.

Doubtful GM will come back this time. GM is like when the Titanic went
under and someone asked how to avoid the collision. A tad bit too late once
the holds are full of water. If the GM board and Wagoner were going to
turn the GM dog around, he should have started a long time ago. And
Wagoner, for making $14.4M in 2007, doesn't seem to own too much GM stock.

And most people concur, this depression is here to stay, which will seal GMs
prediciment.