TJ not returning to center after turn

Jeff, your description is right, but it is positive caster when the
upper ball joint in tilted back from the lower.

http://www.quadratec.com/jeep_knowle...article-37.htm

Also, I would bet that the angle spec you gave him is not correct
because of the negative value. Maybe that is the camber spec?

If I'm not mistaken, most 4x4 vehicles have several degrees of caster.

Chris

Jeff Strickland wrote:
> You are describing the classic symptom of improper Caster Angle.
>
> Draw an imaginary line from the lower to the upper ball joints that
> passes through the center of the spindle. This line must favor leaning
> toward the back of the vehicle, I _think_ this is called "negative
> caster," but I'm not entirely certain of the term.
>
> This problem typically come after adding a lift kit.
>
>
>
>
>
> "97tjMike" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> I have a 1997 TJ Sport with power steering. I posted this question a
>> while ago but never really got an answer. The problem is that the
>> steering wheel does not *completely* return to center after a turn. It
>> attempts to, but never completely bounces back. Also, when driving
>> straight down the road, the steering wheel does not "bounce back" to
>> center if it is turned or flicked a little bit. It's kind've like
>> something is binding. I asked a mechanic and he suggested checking the
>> U-Joints, which I did and they are both OK. I suggested an alignment
>> due to a bad castor angler but he said the castor cannot go off
>> enought to do what it's doing. The dealer I called also said an
>> alignment wouldn't fix the problem, and it was probably a worn out
>> part. Here's what I know:
>>
>> Recent new Steering Box (problem happened before and after
>> replacement)
>> Good Front U-Joints (not binding up anyways)
>> New sway bars (don't think that's related but I'll put it up here
>> anyways)
>> Recent lube of all zerk fittings when I did my oil change a few months
>> ago.
>>
>> I haven't had it aligned since I bought it, however I have put a 2
>> inch spacer coil lift on it and when I did that I did a self-
>> adjustment of the toe-in and the steering wheel centering.
>>
>

97tjMike wrote:
> On Aug 25, 7:35 pm, 97tjMike > wrote:
>> On Aug 25, 12:12 pm, Mike Romain > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I had a grabbing and not returning issue on my CJ7 a bit ago. I checked
>>> the steering shock first and found out it wasn't a shock, only a rod in
>>> an empty tube so that wasn't the cause.
>>> I then found a lower ball joint bad during a grease job when I noticed
>>> the torn boot. Replaced that and all is well again.
>>> You can sometimes pick off a bad ball joint by looking at the tires or
>>> using a level even. If one tire seems to sit out at the top or bottom a
>>> bit more than the other side, suspect a bad ball joint. You need a
>>> 'big' pry bar to get movement in them with the solid axle setup.
>>> Sometimes if you are a big person, you can grab the top of the tire and
>>> rock it in and out hard enough to get the Jeep just a bouncing, you
>>> might feel a click or thunk or shift as the joint flexes.
>>> On a TJ, you also might want to check the track bar bushings. If worn,
>>> they can cause it to 'hang' before centering too.
>>> Mike
>>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
>>> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
>>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>> 97tjMike wrote:
>>>> I have a 1997 TJ Sport with power steering. I posted this question a
>>>> while ago but never really got an answer. The problem is that the
>>>> steering wheel does not *completely* return to center after a turn. It
>>>> attempts to, but never completely bounces back. Also, when driving
>>>> straight down the road, the steering wheel does not "bounce back" to
>>>> center if it is turned or flicked a little bit. It's kind've like
>>>> something is binding. I asked a mechanic and he suggested checking the
>>>> U-Joints, which I did and they are both OK. I suggested an alignment
>>>> due to a bad castor angler but he said the castor cannot go off
>>>> enought to do what it's doing. The dealer I called also said an
>>>> alignment wouldn't fix the problem, and it was probably a worn out
>>>> part. Here's what I know:
>>>> Recent new Steering Box (problem happened before and after
>>>> replacement)
>>>> Good Front U-Joints (not binding up anyways)
>>>> New sway bars (don't think that's related but I'll put it up here
>>>> anyways)
>>>> Recent lube of all zerk fittings when I did my oil change a few months
>>>> ago.
>>>> I haven't had it aligned since I bought it, however I have put a 2
>>>> inch spacer coil lift on it and when I did that I did a self-
>>>> adjustment of the toe-in and the steering wheel centering.
>> Hmm, I think I possibally may have found the problem. I do remember
>> when I last lubed the chassis, the lower ball joint on the drives side
>> had a rip in the boot. I wonder if this is it.
>
> My only concern is that I had it inspected last month by the dealer,
> and wouldn't a ball joint be grounds for failure in NY?
>

It probably is grounds for failure, but how do you know the dealer
properly inspected everything? So many dealers are scam artists and just
plain sloppy in their work. If in fact your ball joint is defective, I
would suggest finding a new dealer or checking things like that
yourself. It is actually pretty easy to do, and that way you're not
putting your life in the hands of someone who might not value your
safety as much as you do.

Chris

Sorry, I just pulled numbers from my ass for the sake of illustration. The
numberw were not intended to be anywhere near right, I only wanted to show
that the desired setting was the one further from zero as opposed to the
setting that was near to zero.






"c" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff, your description is right, but it is positive caster when the upper
> ball joint in tilted back from the lower.
>
> http://www.quadratec.com/jeep_knowle...article-37.htm
>
> Also, I would bet that the angle spec you gave him is not correct because
> of the negative value. Maybe that is the camber spec?
>
> If I'm not mistaken, most 4x4 vehicles have several degrees of caster.
>
> Chris
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> You are describing the classic symptom of improper Caster Angle.
>>
>> Draw an imaginary line from the lower to the upper ball joints that
>> passes through the center of the spindle. This line must favor leaning
>> toward the back of the vehicle, I _think_ this is called "negative
>> caster," but I'm not entirely certain of the term.
>>
>> This problem typically come after adding a lift kit.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "97tjMike" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> I have a 1997 TJ Sport with power steering. I posted this question a
>>> while ago but never really got an answer. The problem is that the
>>> steering wheel does not *completely* return to center after a turn. It
>>> attempts to, but never completely bounces back. Also, when driving
>>> straight down the road, the steering wheel does not "bounce back" to
>>> center if it is turned or flicked a little bit. It's kind've like
>>> something is binding. I asked a mechanic and he suggested checking the
>>> U-Joints, which I did and they are both OK. I suggested an alignment
>>> due to a bad castor angler but he said the castor cannot go off
>>> enought to do what it's doing. The dealer I called also said an
>>> alignment wouldn't fix the problem, and it was probably a worn out
>>> part. Here's what I know:
>>>
>>> Recent new Steering Box (problem happened before and after
>>> replacement)
>>> Good Front U-Joints (not binding up anyways)
>>> New sway bars (don't think that's related but I'll put it up here
>>> anyways)
>>> Recent lube of all zerk fittings when I did my oil change a few months
>>> ago.
>>>
>>> I haven't had it aligned since I bought it, however I have put a 2
>>> inch spacer coil lift on it and when I did that I did a self-
>>> adjustment of the toe-in and the steering wheel centering.
>>>
>>

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:34:16 -0700, L.W. (Bill) Hughes III wrote:

> Real jeeps run


And real men don't.

And you do, constantly.

Running from answers, running from truth, running off at the mouth,
running in ever-smaller circles and whatever that is that's running down
your leg -- again.

Give up, Cooyon.

You ain't ever gonna anything, just like you never were anything.


In your eye.

Dead on.

A real Billseye, so to speak.

"Spdloader" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> news:Ji1Ai.159$hV.157@trnddc02...
>>I wasn't very clear earlier.
>>
>> When you have sufficient negative caster, the weight of the vehicle
>> settles into the steering geometry and literally forces the front tires
>> to be straight ahead. If you've ever ridden a chopper, you probably
>> noticed that the steering was very heavy to get off of center, this is
>> because of the very steep Caster Angle that is a natural part of a
>> chopper. Choppers go straight very easily, but it can be a chore to make
>> them turn.
>>
>> When your Jeep has sufficient Caster Angle, the tires will prefer to be
>> pointed straight ahead. If your Caster angle is almost right, you might
>> notice that the wheel will spin almost by itself from a full lock turn
>> back to center, or within about a 1/4 to 1/8th turn from center. It is
>> not unusual that the steering will have a bit of slop on either side of
>> center where you have to provide the input, but outside of the slop
>> range, the wheel should return to the slop range pretty much by itself.
>> The test I like is to mimic backing out of a parking space and turning
>> the wheel nearly full lock -- the wheel should move towards the center
>> when you go forward, and should require little more than a flick of the
>> wrist if it needs that much. A U-turn should be self-centering too.
>>
>> I think you need to visit an alignment shop to have the caster angle
>> adjusted more negative. There is a specifrication for this setting, and
>> you are likely at the end closer to zero, but you need to be at the end
>> closer to the max. range. Since they have to check it, you may as well
>> have them physically make the change to the max setting.
>>
>> If the range is -0.1 to -0.7, then you are currently closer to -0.1, but
>> want to be closer to -0.7. I don't know what the spec is, I just know you
>> are not at the preferred setting.
>>
>
> For the sake of discussion, Jeff, why would his caster suddenly be off?
> Would a 2" spring lift be substantial enough to cause it?
> Obviously, it would make the upper ball joint move slightly forward, but
> would it be enough to cause his problem?
> ....and did the problem start immediately after installing the spring
> lift?
> On the other hand,......
> Dry, worn ball joints won't allow the spindles to auto-return, they tend
> to stick.
>
> Not for arguments sake, for discussions sake.


No argument here. Anything that gives a bottom line of a caster problem
needs to be looked at. I only gave the adjustment as the problem because
that's what steering return usually turns out to be.

I also suggested that the proper caster is negative when the imaginary line
through the centers of the ball joints and the spindle leans toward the
rear. I am not a front end guy, so I might be really talking about positive
caster.

In any case, the imaginary line should lean to the rear of the vehicle for
proper steering response to and from center.

The ball joints could be worn, but in all of my years owning literally
dozens of cars, I replaced ball joints on one of them, and it did not fix
the problem I was trying to fix. Granted, offroading takes a toll on ball
joints, but offroading also takes a toll on lots of stuff, and for steering
from center, I'll still go with the Caster Angle.

This from the biggest spammer of them all! The jealous, really jealous,
I can't believe how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic
psychopath liar hiding in Vancouver via S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net
24.86.24.251 who's only way to get attention is to make
a fool of its self using foul language, like it did back in elementary
school yard. But, too afraid to use it's name and address, and take on
responsibility like a grown up. With an obsession with perverts and goats,
where it writes via remailers, @news.alt.net, and cross posts to other
perverts to no one's surprise. With extreme jealous ranting over my
documents, possessions, successes, manliness and fine, Southern California
surfing body, beard, and loving Christian family. Committing forgery over
many of my posts, proving I'm a responsible American man. You remind me of a
little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with its senseless barking, me too,
me too. You're even more senile than I first thought. And the poor thing,
you're too girlie to take responsibility for yourself again, by signing your
statement like a man.
That really thinks the group's members are so stupid not to know it's
the same coward, posting over and over again using a schizophrenic
psychopath forged up names?
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraphs it fits so well!
But, now worth a forwarding to: ,
, , , ,
for forgery.
Who said it also likes baby monkeys sucking their penis, like his buddy
posted on an auto picture group at:

I thought this traitor's attacks were just over personal disagreements,
but in reality these attacks stemming from my love of God and America on
Independents Week, I realized you are actually attacking my country, and
that's what you've been doing all along is declaring your hatred for the
United States of America, with each declaration of my signature, but just
too cowardly and stupid to be a terrorist. It's America, love it, or leave
it, so keep the f*ck out!
Or let me know when you cross my American border, so I may arrest you!
YOU ARE A TRAITOR and lost all rights to my American border, and
someday I'll have you in jail where you belong! Any time, I'll fly and meant
with other patriots guarding our borders against vermin like you.
Forwarded to: alt.binaries.pictures.autos,
alt.binaries.automobile.pictures groups so they may to see what an a**hole
you, aka SW really is!!!!!
Why don't you call the San Diego Sheriffs Department at 858-974-2020
YOU NEED HELP!
The moral majority say you are not only faggots, but cowards
You wouldn't know about business as you have never succeeded and
anything.
Tell me when you are about to cross my American border and I'll fly up
and arrange at meeting with the U.S. Border patrol and Minutemen for your
arrest, after you give me your name, address, date, and meeting place.
I would appreciate the name and address of these trolls, Square Wheel:
S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 and
24bit:
12.205.158.32 AT&T WorldNet Services ATT Mediacom Communications Corp. I
will keep your name in confidence, kindly email or

Sincerely,
Llewellyn W. (Bill) Hughes III

--
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/


"Sam Simian" > wrote in message
news:5Y3Ai.93286$fJ5.72686@pd7urf1no...
>
> And real men don't.
>
> And you do, constantly.
>
> Running from answers, running from truth, running off at the mouth,
> running in ever-smaller circles and whatever that is that's running down
> your leg -- again.
>
> Give up, Cooyon.
>
> You ain't ever gonna anything, just like you never were anything.
>
>
> In your eye.
>
> Dead on.
>
> A real Billseye, so to speak.
>
>
>
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

97tjMike wrote:
> On Aug 25, 7:35 pm, 97tjMike > wrote:
>> On Aug 25, 12:12 pm, Mike Romain > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I had a grabbing and not returning issue on my CJ7 a bit ago. I checked
>>> the steering shock first and found out it wasn't a shock, only a rod in
>>> an empty tube so that wasn't the cause.
>>> I then found a lower ball joint bad during a grease job when I noticed
>>> the torn boot. Replaced that and all is well again.
>>> You can sometimes pick off a bad ball joint by looking at the tires or
>>> using a level even. If one tire seems to sit out at the top or bottom a
>>> bit more than the other side, suspect a bad ball joint. You need a
>>> 'big' pry bar to get movement in them with the solid axle setup.
>>> Sometimes if you are a big person, you can grab the top of the tire and
>>> rock it in and out hard enough to get the Jeep just a bouncing, you
>>> might feel a click or thunk or shift as the joint flexes.
>>> On a TJ, you also might want to check the track bar bushings. If worn,
>>> they can cause it to 'hang' before centering too.
>>> Mike
>>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
>>> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
>>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>> 97tjMike wrote:
>>>> I have a 1997 TJ Sport with power steering. I posted this question a
>>>> while ago but never really got an answer. The problem is that the
>>>> steering wheel does not *completely* return to center after a turn. It
>>>> attempts to, but never completely bounces back. Also, when driving
>>>> straight down the road, the steering wheel does not "bounce back" to
>>>> center if it is turned or flicked a little bit. It's kind've like
>>>> something is binding. I asked a mechanic and he suggested checking the
>>>> U-Joints, which I did and they are both OK. I suggested an alignment
>>>> due to a bad castor angler but he said the castor cannot go off
>>>> enought to do what it's doing. The dealer I called also said an
>>>> alignment wouldn't fix the problem, and it was probably a worn out
>>>> part. Here's what I know:
>>>> Recent new Steering Box (problem happened before and after
>>>> replacement)
>>>> Good Front U-Joints (not binding up anyways)
>>>> New sway bars (don't think that's related but I'll put it up here
>>>> anyways)
>>>> Recent lube of all zerk fittings when I did my oil change a few months
>>>> ago.
>>>> I haven't had it aligned since I bought it, however I have put a 2
>>>> inch spacer coil lift on it and when I did that I did a self-
>>>> adjustment of the toe-in and the steering wheel centering.
>> Hmm, I think I possibally may have found the problem. I do remember
>> when I last lubed the chassis, the lower ball joint on the drives side
>> had a rip in the boot. I wonder if this is it.
>
> My only concern is that I had it inspected last month by the dealer,
> and wouldn't a ball joint be grounds for failure in NY?
>

Well, they don't get the name $tealership for nothing....

They 'are' hard to spot though....

If the boot is torn, suspect joint movement as the cause.

Mike

On Aug 25, 11:40 pm, Mike Romain > wrote:
> 97tjMike wrote:
> > On Aug 25, 7:35 pm, 97tjMike > wrote:
> >> On Aug 25, 12:12 pm, Mike Romain > wrote:
>
> >>> I had a grabbing and not returning issue on my CJ7 a bit ago. I checked
> >>> the steering shock first and found out it wasn't a shock, only a rod in
> >>> an empty tube so that wasn't the cause.
> >>> I then found a lower ball joint bad during a grease job when I noticed
> >>> the torn boot. Replaced that and all is well again.
> >>> You can sometimes pick off a bad ball joint by looking at the tires or
> >>> using a level even. If one tire seems to sit out at the top or bottom a
> >>> bit more than the other side, suspect a bad ball joint. You need a
> >>> 'big' pry bar to get movement in them with the solid axle setup.
> >>> Sometimes if you are a big person, you can grab the top of the tire and
> >>> rock it in and out hard enough to get the Jeep just a bouncing, you
> >>> might feel a click or thunk or shift as the joint flexes.
> >>> On a TJ, you also might want to check the track bar bushings. If worn,
> >>> they can cause it to 'hang' before centering too.
> >>> Mike
> >>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> >>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> >>> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> >>> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> >>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> >>> 97tjMike wrote:
> >>>> I have a 1997 TJ Sport with power steering. I posted this question a
> >>>> while ago but never really got an answer. The problem is that the
> >>>> steering wheel does not *completely* return to center after a turn. It
> >>>> attempts to, but never completely bounces back. Also, when driving
> >>>> straight down the road, the steering wheel does not "bounce back" to
> >>>> center if it is turned or flicked a little bit. It's kind've like
> >>>> something is binding. I asked a mechanic and he suggested checking the
> >>>> U-Joints, which I did and they are both OK. I suggested an alignment
> >>>> due to a bad castor angler but he said the castor cannot go off
> >>>> enought to do what it's doing. The dealer I called also said an
> >>>> alignment wouldn't fix the problem, and it was probably a worn out
> >>>> part. Here's what I know:
> >>>> Recent new Steering Box (problem happened before and after
> >>>> replacement)
> >>>> Good Front U-Joints (not binding up anyways)
> >>>> New sway bars (don't think that's related but I'll put it up here
> >>>> anyways)
> >>>> Recent lube of all zerk fittings when I did my oil change a few months
> >>>> ago.
> >>>> I haven't had it aligned since I bought it, however I have put a 2
> >>>> inch spacer coil lift on it and when I did that I did a self-
> >>>> adjustment of the toe-in and the steering wheel centering.
> >> Hmm, I think I possibally may have found the problem. I do remember
> >> when I last lubed the chassis, the lower ball joint on the drives side
> >> had a rip in the boot. I wonder if this is it.
>
> > My only concern is that I had it inspected last month by the dealer,
> > and wouldn't a ball joint be grounds for failure in NY?
>
> Well, they don't get the name $tealership for nothing....
>
> They 'are' hard to spot though....
>
> If the boot is torn, suspect joint movement as the cause.
>
> Mike

so no really easy way to test it though other than replacement?

97tjMike wrote:

>
> so no really easy way to test it though other than replacement?
>

I looked carefully at the gap on each side and noticed a difference. I
also used a large pry bar and got a slight bit of sideways (front to
back I think it was) motion so I changed it. I was lucky and that was
my trouble.

A carpenters level put on the rim to check vertical angles can sometimes
pick off a slight difference between the sides indicating the blown joint.

If you have 'not' been bushwhacking lately, then the only way to get a
torn boot is from joint movement.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

"97tjMike" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> > My only concern is that I had it inspected last month by the dealer,
>> > and wouldn't a ball joint be grounds for failure in NY?
>>
>> Well, they don't get the name $tealership for nothing....
>>
>> They 'are' hard to spot though....
>>
>> If the boot is torn, suspect joint movement as the cause.
>>
>> Mike
>
> so no really easy way to test it though other than replacement?
>

Take the weight off and attempt to move the tire up & down, and in & out at
the top and bottom. The tires should not move along these axii, if they do,
then ball joints move up on the list of usual suspects for your steering
trouble.

Mike suggested that if the boots are torn, the joints are worn. The flip
side of that rule is that if the boots are not torn, odds favor the joints
being in serviceable condition.