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  #11  
Old August 30th 11, 05:28 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

Pat Dotson:
>I tried your 139/139/139/100 settings with various in-game FFB
> strengths. The wheel (G25) was clipping constantly with anything but
> an in-game setting of around 1 or 2.
>
> If it's damping that you want, you can add that with the new slider
> that iRacing added. That still doesn't change what clipping is, and
> how you have to set all the parameters to avoid it. There can be no
> doubt, especially with your earliest recommendation of using in-game
> strength of 40, that your settings will clip FFB effects continually
> in corners.
>
> BTW, by setting your overall strength to 139%, what you are doing is
> amplifying the smallest FFB signals. The result is less of the 'dead
> zone' that people used to complain about with the G25's. Actually at
> 139%, you've gone far past accounting for the dead zone, and have
> introduced instability into the feedback whenever the force direction
> is reversed.
>
> Also, my FOV is set to match my screen size and distance to my eyes so
> that I get a perspective close to reality. If you look back through
> iRacing forums and even here on RAS, you'll see that I was an early
> proponent of this.


Well, thanks for trying it out.
What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW
what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. This
clipping definitely doesn't affect my FFB, neither in corners, or anywhere
else. I also very well know what you say about so called "dead zone", and
yes rising up things eliminates this. You have to rise up past that "dead
zone" and to match the strength of your arms. People are so misunderstanding
things.
I mean, look at settings 139/139/139/139. Well, if I am a
manufacturer of FFB wheels, this is how I would design things. And not to
say that the default is 100/100/100/100, and the right is 100/0/0/100.
Please. Also, I am using ALL of the in-game, you are using what, some
minicular part of FFB. Man, this just doesn't have a sense, it is so
obvious. So obvious.
This all wouldn't mean much, if I really don't feel exactly how
would I expect to feel, both, driving my settings, and driving your
settings. Your settings for me are just out of this world. It really is so
untrue, so erratic, that you really need to use low FFB to manage this. I
mean, even if iRacing recommended 20%, nobody used that much, simply because
they couldn't handle it. I am handling my way, whichever setting you want. I
can drive with 150/150/150/150, and in-game all the way up, the only problem
is, just like you would EXPECT, it is too strong for my arms.
The key is to adjust the hight of screen, and cockpitLookDeadZone,
where the hight of screen is by far the most important thing, and you have
to adjust it to 4 decimal places.

Mario

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  #12  
Old August 31st 11, 03:01 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default FFB

> * * * * What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW
> what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it.


What is it that you feel that you are calling clipping? Please
describe it?

Clipping is actually a lack of feel. If the wheel is clipping, there
will be extended periods of time where the wheel is doing nothing but
applying a constant force in one directly. You will feel nothing but
this constant force. So, if there is some other "spikyness" that you
are feeling, that is not clipping.
  #13  
Old August 31st 11, 05:09 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Ken MacKay[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default FFB

Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much
have to contribute.

Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. What
I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like
hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle
forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so
he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the
expense of the larger forces being clipped.

As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying
that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because
without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value.
In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set
point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little
damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then
undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few
cycles. Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and
keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the
"spikyness"). In a dynamic system, where the set point is always
changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. I believe
this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On
the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set
point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be
reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set
point.

As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't
have that wheel. And again, this is how I interpreted his posts.
YMMV.

I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and
cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. The only possible connection I
could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion
correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces
coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. But that
is just a guess on my part. If there is a correlation between the
actual forces output by the wheel and FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone
settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and
why the settings require such precision.
  #14  
Old August 31st 11, 11:14 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

Ken MacKay:
> Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much
> have to contribute.
>
> Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. What
> I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like
> hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle
> forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so
> he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the
> expense of the larger forces being clipped.
>
> As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying
> that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because
> without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value.
> In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set
> point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little
> damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then
> undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few
> cycles. Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and
> keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the
> "spikyness"). In a dynamic system, where the set point is always
> changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. I believe
> this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On
> the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set
> point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be
> reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set
> point.


Oh, thanks Ken.
You obviously understand very well those things, and plus you have
experience with it. I also have some experience at my work. I was writing
exactly what you wrote, in iRacing forum, and boy, the reception I got, BOTH
from common laymen, and from iRacing. I mean, at least iRacing SHOULD know
something about it. I mean, maybe iRacing understands this, they never said
that they excluded me because of what I wrote, but because of complaining of
other people. This way or that way, this simply isn't fair.
I mean, you wrote everything, and this cannot be written better. Who
is able to understand it, he will understand. The problem are some
missconceptions that are preveiling in simracing community. The
missconceptions aren't that bad, if they weren't backed up by
Papyrus/iRacing themselves. The most popular missconception is that damper
forces are canned. Of course they are canned, but without them FFB forces
DON'T work as intended. Simple as that. Both, Papyrus and iRacing
INTENTIONALLY dissabled damper. There is NO sense in this. Even if people
who are using damper are wrong (of course, they aren't), I mean, they have
the right to use it, if they want it. And then come some "purists" who want
"pure" forces. Lol, I mean...

> As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't
> have that wheel. And again, this is how I interpreted his posts.
> YMMV.
>
> I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and
> cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. The only possible connection I
> could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion
> correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces
> coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. But that
> is just a guess on my part. If there is a correlation between the
> actual forces output by the wheel and FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone
> settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and
> why the settings require such precision.


The incorrect FOV beahves like this:
Too low FOV, picture is vertically compressed, and horizontally
stretched.
Too high FOV, is the other way around.
The arch you are seeing on your screen doesn't corespondence to the
forces you feel through wheel. If too low FOV, you have too sharp corners,
and other way around.
But FOV isn't such a problem.
CockiptLookDeadZone is some kind of lag menagement. I am still
testing it, but it looks like this should be something like 0.100000.
iRacing puts this to 0.050000. Of course that lag affects FFB very much.
But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this
affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it
badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects
FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to
match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB.

Mario

  #15  
Old August 31st 11, 11:30 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

Pat Dotson:
> What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW
> what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it.


What is it that you feel that you are calling clipping? Please
describe it?

Clipping is actually a lack of feel. If the wheel is clipping, there
will be extended periods of time where the wheel is doing nothing but
applying a constant force in one directly. You will feel nothing but
this constant force. So, if there is some other "spikyness" that you
are feeling, that is not clipping.
---------------------------------------------------------

I believe that this is more complicated than this. Ken will
understand.
First people misunderstand what FORCE FEEDBACK is. Force feedback
isn't a force that is applied from wheel onto your hands. People understand
word "force" very well, the problem is that they don't understand word
"feedback" at all. The "force" is FEED by the work of your arms. If you
resist wheel, force will grow larger. I only wanted to make this clearer.
Clipping isn't just a constant force.
First, clipping is the uttermost force, it is the strongest force
you will feel, you cannot miss it at all, you don't need delicate tools to
feel it, it will be so strong, that you will feel it in your bones.
Then, look above what I wrote regarding "feedback". You resist wheel
force, and wheel force grow stronger. But then it stops to grow, and your
arms win. This is clipping in force feedback.
I feel it exactly like somebody is hammering with a hammer inside
wheel. I feel it only on bamps (sometimes in other, NON-DRIVING situations).
Which is logical, bamps are by far the strongest things you will feel on
your wheel. So, I hit a bamp, I feel like somebody has hit wheel with a
hammer.

Mario

  #16  
Old August 31st 11, 11:51 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this
> affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it
> badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects
> FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to
> match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB.


Actually, it is more like your wheel is on pendulum (I hope this is
correct word) attached to the center of gravity. The bigger the difference
between center of your eyes and center of screen, the longer pendulum is.

Mario

  #17  
Old September 1st 11, 12:40 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

"Mario Petrinovic" > wrote in message
...
> Mario Petrinovic:
>> But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this
>> affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it
>> badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects
>> FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to
>> match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB.

>
> Actually, it is more like your wheel is on pendulum (I hope this is
> correct word) attached to the center of gravity. The bigger the difference
> between center of your eyes and center of screen, the longer pendulum is.


Actually, not pendulum, but a stick or a pole attached to center of
gravity.

Mario

  #18  
Old September 1st 11, 01:31 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Ken MacKay[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default FFB

Well sometimes it is not what you write, but how you write it. Your
writing style is a bit, not sure if this is the right word,
aggressive. Some of it may just be the translation, but often good
ideas may not be well received if they are presented the wrong way.
On the internet two people (even many people) agreeing on something
doesn't make it right. And at for every opinion out there someone
will have an opposing one. Life gets easier if you can accept that.

BTW I am not an expert on control systems, and certainly don't know
the inner workings of how FFB is implemented. I'm assuming the term
"damping" in a FFB wheel settings is the same as damping in a control
system, but sometimes different industries have different meanings for
the same terms. For example in truth it is not really force feedback
system, but more of a force feedforward system (i.e. the amount of
force at the wheel is not fed back into the system to determine the
new set point for the force. It is only one way as the wheel position
is read the and the physics in the virtual environment is processed to
determine the resulting force, whether or not the force is actually
output has no (little) bearing on the next calculation of the force
signal. For example you could cut the wires to the motor and the force
calculated would be the same even though no force is generated). I
can't say for sure that damping with a FFB wheel works in the way the
way previously described as haven't done any testing or seen any
results to prove it.

The problem with FFB is that is very subjective. As you said things
such as the amount of force felt will depend on how firmly someone is
holding the wheel (i.e the controller just sends current to the motor,
if someone is holding it tightly a force is produced, if it is not
held the wheel just spins with no (little) force produced). What I
would like to see is someone instrumenting the wheel to measure force
(torque) and compare the measured force (torque) signal to the control
signal. That would allow for proper tuning of the wheel settings to
ensure that the force output follows the control signal, and would
also determine lag, clipping, etc.

Still have to think about what you are saying about the screen height/
FOV affecting FFB. Certainly lag in the FFB output can cause
problems with timing in what is felt and what is seen on screen. To
clarify, are you saying that if the driving position in the game
(virtual cockpit) is moved higher the forces are changed? Or is it
that if you move your real seating position relative to the monitor
that the force changes (e.g. you raise/lower the monitor on the desk).


On Aug 31, 7:14*pm, "Mario Petrinovic" >
wrote:
> Ken MacKay:
>
>
>
> > Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much
> > have to contribute.

>
> > Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. *What
> > I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like
> > hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle
> > forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so
> > he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the
> > expense of the larger forces being clipped.

>
> > As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying
> > that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because
> > without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value.
> > In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set
> > point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little
> > damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then
> > undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few
> > cycles. *Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and
> > keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the
> > "spikyness"). *In a dynamic system, where the set point is always
> > changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. *I believe
> > this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On
> > the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set
> > point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be
> > reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set
> > point.

>
> * * * * Oh, thanks Ken.
> * * * * You obviously understand very well those things, and plus you have
> experience with it. I also have some experience at my work. I was writing
> exactly what you wrote, in iRacing forum, and boy, the reception I got, BOTH
> from common laymen, and from iRacing. I mean, at least iRacing SHOULD know
> something about it. I mean, maybe iRacing understands this, they never said
> that they excluded me because of what I wrote, but because of complaining of
> other people. This way or that way, this simply isn't fair.
> * * * * I mean, you wrote everything, and this cannot be written better. Who
> is able to understand it, he will understand. The problem are some
> missconceptions that are preveiling in simracing community. The
> missconceptions aren't that bad, if they weren't backed up by
> Papyrus/iRacing themselves. The most popular missconception is that damper
> forces are canned. Of course they are canned, but without them FFB forces
> DON'T work as intended. Simple as that. Both, Papyrus and iRacing
> INTENTIONALLY dissabled damper. There is NO sense in this. Even if people
> who are using damper are wrong (of course, they aren't), I mean, they have
> the right to use it, if they want it. And then come some "purists" who want
> "pure" forces. Lol, I mean...
>
> > As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't
> > have that wheel. *And again, this is how I interpreted his posts.
> > YMMV.

>
> > I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and
> > cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. *The only possible connection I
> > could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion
> > correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces
> > coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. *But that
> > is just a guess on my part. *If there is a correlation between the
> > actual forces output by the wheel and *FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone
> > settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and
> > why the settings require such precision.

>
> * * * * The incorrect FOV beahves like this:
> * * * * Too low FOV, picture is vertically compressed, and horizontally
> stretched.
> * * * * Too high FOV, is the other way around.
> * * * * The arch you are seeing on your screen doesn't corespondence to the
> forces you feel through wheel. If too low FOV, you have too sharp corners,
> and other way around.
> * * * * But FOV isn't such a problem.
> * * * * CockiptLookDeadZone is some kind of lag menagement. I am still
> testing it, but it looks like this should be something like 0.100000.
> iRacing puts this to 0.050000. Of course that lag affects FFB very much.
> * * * * But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this
> affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it
> badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects
> FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to
> match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB.
>
> * * * * Mario


  #19  
Old September 1st 11, 02:42 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

Ken MacKay:
Well sometimes it is not what you write, but how you write it. Your
writing style is a bit, not sure if this is the right word,
aggressive. Some of it may just be the translation, but often good
ideas may not be well received if they are presented the wrong way.
On the internet two people (even many people) agreeing on something
doesn't make it right. And at for every opinion out there someone
will have an opposing one. Life gets easier if you can accept that.
--------------------------------------------------------------

No, life gets tougher. Because problems remain unsolved.
First, I am NOT an aggresive person, and I wasn't aggresive. A lot
of people perceive any new idea as an aggresion towards their world, but
this doesn't mean that people who are spreading those ideas are aggresive,
it is other people that are aggresive towards them. It is like someone would
say that Galileo was aggresive with his ideas, while actually the others
were aggresive towards him. While many people were EXTREMLY rude towards me,
I tried to turn this into a fun, into a joke, or something. iRacing should
have protected me from angry mob, but they did just the opposite.
-------------------------------------------------------------

BTW I am not an expert on control systems, and certainly don't know
the inner workings of how FFB is implemented. I'm assuming the term
"damping" in a FFB wheel settings is the same as damping in a control
system, but sometimes different industries have different meanings for
the same terms. For example in truth it is not really force feedback
system, but more of a force feedforward system (i.e. the amount of
force at the wheel is not fed back into the system to determine the
new set point for the force. It is only one way as the wheel position
is read the and the physics in the virtual environment is processed to
determine the resulting force, whether or not the force is actually
output has no (little) bearing on the next calculation of the force
signal. For example you could cut the wires to the motor and the force
calculated would be the same even though no force is generated). I
can't say for sure that damping with a FFB wheel works in the way the
way previously described as haven't done any testing or seen any
results to prove it.

The problem with FFB is that is very subjective. As you said things
such as the amount of force felt will depend on how firmly someone is
holding the wheel (i.e the controller just sends current to the motor,
if someone is holding it tightly a force is produced, if it is not
held the wheel just spins with no (little) force produced). What I
would like to see is someone instrumenting the wheel to measure force
(torque) and compare the measured force (torque) signal to the control
signal. That would allow for proper tuning of the wheel settings to
ensure that the force output follows the control signal, and would
also determine lag, clipping, etc.

Still have to think about what you are saying about the screen height/
FOV affecting FFB. Certainly lag in the FFB output can cause
problems with timing in what is felt and what is seen on screen. To
clarify, are you saying that if the driving position in the game
(virtual cockpit) is moved higher the forces are changed? Or is it
that if you move your real seating position relative to the monitor
that the force changes (e.g. you raise/lower the monitor on the desk).
----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, start with lag. You drive your sim car guided by the picture on
screen. The problem is that there is a DIFFERENCE in time, and this is
reflected in FFB.
FOV. For example, wrong FOV looks like some compressed or stretched
world, like you are driving your car in a compressed (or stretched) world.
There wouldn't be a problem to drive a car in such a world, if physics in
sim are like physics in a compressed world, but they aren't, they are like
in normal world, so here you have the DIFFERENCE which affects FFB.
Imagine all the physics in sim. You can tie it to one particular
point in space, and this is a vanishing point. You, in your normal world
also have vanishing point, and your screen, just like everything else, fits
into it, it is tied to it. Now, problem arise if you want to do something
which isn't in your world, but in a virtual world inside the screen. This
world has its own vanishing point, which doesn't match yours, and all your
physics isn't aligned to the physics of the virtual world. The difference
behaves just like I explained in the previous post. IOW, you drive your car
like it is in your world (well, actually, the picture of it is in your
world), while actually it isn't, it is in some other world, which is (the
whole sim world) shifted down or up. Well, I cannot explain it better, but,
of course, I can clearly feel it in FFB, otherwise I wouldn't write about
it.
I mean, there shouldn't be a problem for anyone to try it, just
shift hight of picture up or down. Of course, if you have undamped FFB, you
have big problems to perceive anything rightly, so any rise of screen can be
just as confusing and FFB just as erratic.

Mario

  #20  
Old September 1st 11, 04:19 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default FFB

If Mario's recommended settings resulted in only the largest spike in
forces to be clipped, I would find that perfectly reasonable. If the
addition of damper results in a more realistic feel for him, I think
that's great. I usually use some level of damping myself.

I see two problems here;


One, Mario describes clipping as some sort of extremely strong shock
delivered through the wheel. He says this: "Clipping isn't just a
constant force." But it is. If the wheel is clipping, it is
outputting the constant maximum force allowed by the wheel's FFB
settings.Everyone else in the world understands this, but Mario seems
to be trying to redefine the use of the word.


Secondly, his recommended 139/139/139 settings combined with any more
than a 1 or 2 in-game FFB strength results in constant FFB clipping,
i.e. max force output of the FFB motors. In fact, with a 139 overall
strength, even at a 1 or 2 in-game setting, the usable cornering
aligning torque feedback is being "squashed" into the upper range of
force level, such that it might as well be clipped. With his original
recommendation of 40 on the old 100 scale, or his new recommendation
of 8 on the 40 scale, the only time the wheel will not be delivering
max force output will be when the wheel is within a few degrees of the
center of the aligning torque of the front tires. Going down an
straight away, and slightly moving the steering wheel to the left or
right will result in max force in the opposite direction. It's very
unstable.


The other thing is his ideas on FOV. If all he is saying is that the
perspective needs to be correct in order for the brain to properly
interpret FFB in the context of what is on-screen, then that is
reasonable. But he seems to be saying that the forces felt at the
wheel literally change when FOV settings are changed. I do not
believe this. And even if they did change, IMO he would never be able
to perceive the difference given the FFB settings he claims to run.

But obviously, he has all the answers and everyone else in the world
is clueless
 




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What is the current FFB Wheel of choice? Mike Armstrong Simulators 10 December 6th 04 10:36 AM


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