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99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 27th 09, 02:49 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Ok, I am at a loss. Son called me from a friends house and said car
wouldn't start, was running fine when he shut it off, got ready to
leave 2 hours later and nothing.

Went over to check things out, motor turned over normally, almost
started "kinda acted like it is just not getting enough fuel" but
would not run. Threw the car on a trailer, brought it to the house.
Checked fuel pressure at the rail (46-48psi and holds for over 5
minutes) put OBDII scanner on the car, no codes. Checked spark, got
spark on all 6 cylinders. Checked injector pulse, (this is where it
gets strange) on cylinders 1 and 2 I get 1 pulse on intial crank then
nothing. Was really liking the cam or crank postion sensor for this so
I back probed the cam position sensor and got a fluctuating 5vdc,
checked crankshaft position sensor, nothing, pulled it and replaced,
now I got good crank PS signal, went back to injectors, 1 and 2 now
get erratic pulse (and I say that by comparison... because what I
would expect to see, I don't so I worked my way toward the back
cylinders... 3 and 4 seem more like what I would expect, but something
still just doesn't seem right, so checked 5 and 6 and got more of what
I would expect to see and I say that with this caveat.. I almost watch
the noid light in shock, because I would not expect to see it react
the way it does (borderline to much for just cranking the motor
over).

The only thing I have left to check is compression, thinking that
would indicate whether timing belt took a dive (I shudder at this
thought, but the car has 189,000 miles on it and has been very
reliable). However... I have spark and unless I am missing something
there is no way I am getting spark if its broke AND coupled with the
cam position sensor giving me the a flucuating 5v reading when I turn
the motor over with a breaker bar. Also, for S&G, checked resistance
on both sensor outputs to ground got no short on either.

I am leaning more towards the ECM at this point, and I have seen them
just take a dive, but not willing to go out on a limb and drop $250
without SOMETHING definitive.

Is it possible for a Chrysler shop to bench the ECM off the car?

Is it possible for it to jump time and cause the injector pulse to act
this way?

I am at a loss...
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  #2  
Old May 27th 09, 03:19 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Bill Putney
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Posts: 2,410
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

wrote:
> Ok, I am at a loss. Son called me from a friends house and said car
> wouldn't start, was running fine when he shut it off, got ready to
> leave 2 hours later and nothing.
>
> Went over to check things out, motor turned over normally, almost
> started "kinda acted like it is just not getting enough fuel" but
> would not run. Threw the car on a trailer, brought it to the house.
> Checked fuel pressure at the rail (46-48psi and holds for over 5
> minutes) put OBDII scanner on the car, no codes. Checked spark, got
> spark on all 6 cylinders. Checked injector pulse, (this is where it
> gets strange) on cylinders 1 and 2 I get 1 pulse on intial crank then
> nothing. Was really liking the cam or crank postion sensor for this so
> I back probed the cam position sensor and got a fluctuating 5vdc,
> checked crankshaft position sensor, nothing, pulled it and replaced,
> now I got good crank PS signal, went back to injectors, 1 and 2 now
> get erratic pulse (and I say that by comparison... because what I
> would expect to see, I don't so I worked my way toward the back
> cylinders... 3 and 4 seem more like what I would expect, but something
> still just doesn't seem right, so checked 5 and 6 and got more of what
> I would expect to see and I say that with this caveat.. I almost watch
> the noid light in shock, because I would not expect to see it react
> the way it does (borderline to much for just cranking the motor
> over).
>
> The only thing I have left to check is compression, thinking that
> would indicate whether timing belt took a dive (I shudder at this
> thought, but the car has 189,000 miles on it and has been very
> reliable). However... I have spark and unless I am missing something
> there is no way I am getting spark if its broke AND coupled with the
> cam position sensor giving me the a flucuating 5v reading when I turn
> the motor over with a breaker bar. Also, for S&G, checked resistance
> on both sensor outputs to ground got no short on either.
>
> I am leaning more towards the ECM at this point, and I have seen them
> just take a dive, but not willing to go out on a limb and drop $250
> without SOMETHING definitive.
>
> Is it possible for a Chrysler shop to bench the ECM off the car?
>
> Is it possible for it to jump time and cause the injector pulse to act
> this way?
>
> I am at a loss...


They have 189k miles on it on the original timing belt!? Forgive me,
but if it did break, they would deserve a few bent valves. Change
interval is 100 or 105k - depending on year - and they do not like to go
much beyond that.

I believe you'd still get spark based on the crank position sensor even
if the cam position sensor is not getting blipped (not 100% sure about
that, but I think I'm right).

You can partially remove timing cover to inspect for broken or slipped
belt, but at that mileage, it would be a miracle if it isn't broken.

Sounds like it was at low speed (which is often when they break) which
would lessen the likelihood of bent valves if it is the belt.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
  #3  
Old May 27th 09, 04:56 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Joe Pfeiffer
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Posts: 433
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Bill Putney > writes:

<snip actual problem>

> I believe you'd still get spark based on the crank position sensor
> even if the cam position sensor is not getting blipped (not 100% sure
> about that, but I think I'm right).


This isn't clear from the FSM -- the ignition timing is based on the
crank sensor, but which piston will be at TDC comes from the cam sensor.

Though if the timing belt has failed I'd expect a code from the
resulting cam-to-crank sensor misalignment (I don't see anything in the
FSM that looks definitive to me about whether that'll detect the case
that no cam sensor input is happening, though).

> You can partially remove timing cover to inspect for broken or slipped
> belt, but at that mileage, it would be a miracle if it isn't broken.
>
> Sounds like it was at low speed (which is often when they break) which
> would lessen the likelihood of bent valves if it is the belt.


That would be very lucky, to say the least -- my daughter's Neon, with a
4, passed a compression test after breaking a timing belt, but burned a
hell of a lot of oil ever after. I'm not sure it's even possible to
break a timing belt on a 6 without bending valves.
  #4  
Old May 27th 09, 10:03 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Bill Putney
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Posts: 2,410
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Bill Putney > writes:
>
> <snip actual problem>
>
>> I believe you'd still get spark based on the crank position sensor
>> even if the cam position sensor is not getting blipped (not 100% sure
>> about that, but I think I'm right).

>
> This isn't clear from the FSM -- the ignition timing is based on the
> crank sensor, but which piston will be at TDC comes from the cam sensor.


You could be right. It seems that I've read posts on one of the LH car
forums by people who know that it is possible, though I couldn't tell
you what secondary backup source the computer could possibly use to sync
the pistons to the ignition - and it is entirely possibly that I am
mis-remembering. I guess, as you suggest, I could imagine it (as a
temporary or limp mode) being able to sync up with no crank signal
before I could imagine it syncing up with no cam signal. On the other
hand - it doesn't run at all now.

> Though if the timing belt has failed I'd expect a code from the
> resulting cam-to-crank sensor misalignment (I don't see anything in the
> FSM that looks definitive to me about whether that'll detect the case
> that no cam sensor input is happening, though).


I do know for a fact that it is often reported on the LH forums that a
bad cam or crank signal will not always throw a code. In this case
since it was a sudden no-run event, the PCM may not be seeing enough
information to set a code - though it would seem that enough info. is
there for it to know something (which is no good if the firmware doesn't
exploit the info.), but nevertheless it is known not to under a few
failure scenarios (bad position sensors being one of them, though bad
position sensors sometimes will set a code, and I think broken timing
belt will not set codes - again, could be mistaken).

>> You can partially remove timing cover to inspect for broken or slipped
>> belt, but at that mileage, it would be a miracle if it isn't broken.
>>
>> Sounds like it was at low speed (which is often when they break) which
>> would lessen the likelihood of bent valves if it is the belt.

>
> That would be very lucky, to say the least...


The broken timing belt threads we see on the LH car forums very often
report the event happening immediately at startup or at low speeds (not
difficult to imagine that the more pulsatile/high-peak stresses on the
timing belt would occur at the lower speeds when smoothing flywheel
effects on the cam are for all intents and purposes absent.

> ...-- my daughter's Neon, with a
> 4, passed a compression test after breaking a timing belt, but burned a
> hell of a lot of oil ever after...


Strange. Do you have any idea why that would be? I'm having trouble
thinking of the connection between the timing belt failure and burning
oil. Not doubting - just trying to visualize. I guess it is possible
that the two just happened to start occurring around the same time.

> ...I'm not sure it's even possible to
> break a timing belt on a 6 without bending valves.


Yes - it definitely is possible - we see broken timing belt threads in
which the valves were *not* bent as well as ones in which they *were*
bent. Obviously the chances of successfully "running between the
raindrops" is statistically greater at low speed based purely on the far
fewer number of after-break revolutions of the crank and cams from
flywheels effects on both. I get the impression that the of crank
rotation degrees of possible interference-to-360° ratio is rather small
which would of course, combined with breakage at low-speed operation,
decrease the chances of valve/piston disagreements during the event.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
  #5  
Old May 27th 09, 05:46 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Joe Pfeiffer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 433
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Bill Putney > writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
>> ...-- my daughter's Neon, with a
>> 4, passed a compression test after breaking a timing belt, but burned a
>> hell of a lot of oil ever after...

>
> Strange. Do you have any idea why that would be? I'm having trouble
> thinking of the connection between the timing belt failure and burning
> oil. Not doubting - just trying to visualize. I guess it is possible
> that the two just happened to start occurring around the same time.


My guess was valve guides -- lots of blue right after startup.

>> ...I'm not sure it's even possible to
>> break a timing belt on a 6 without bending valves.

>
> Yes - it definitely is possible - we see broken timing belt threads in
> which the valves were *not* bent as well as ones in which they *were*
> bent. Obviously the chances of successfully "running between the
> raindrops" is statistically greater at low speed based purely on the
> far fewer number of after-break revolutions of the crank and cams from
> flywheels effects on both. I get the impression that the of crank
> rotation degrees of possible interference-to-360° ratio is rather
> small which would of course, combined with breakage at low-speed
> operation, decrease the chances of valve/piston disagreements during
> the event.


Good to know (though I sure hope I never have occasion to test it!).
  #6  
Old May 28th 09, 12:50 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Bill Putney
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Posts: 2,410
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Bill Putney > writes:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>>> ...-- my daughter's Neon, with a
>>> 4, passed a compression test after breaking a timing belt, but burned a
>>> hell of a lot of oil ever after...

>> Strange. Do you have any idea why that would be? I'm having trouble
>> thinking of the connection between the timing belt failure and burning
>> oil. Not doubting - just trying to visualize. I guess it is possible
>> that the two just happened to start occurring around the same time.

>
> My guess was valve guides -- lots of blue right after startup.


But can you figure out a connection to the timing belt breaking? I can't.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
  #7  
Old May 28th 09, 02:34 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Joe Pfeiffer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 433
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Bill Putney > writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Bill Putney > writes:
>>
>>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...-- my daughter's Neon, with a
>>>> 4, passed a compression test after breaking a timing belt, but burned a
>>>> hell of a lot of oil ever after...
>>> Strange. Do you have any idea why that would be? I'm having trouble
>>> thinking of the connection between the timing belt failure and burning
>>> oil. Not doubting - just trying to visualize. I guess it is possible
>>> that the two just happened to start occurring around the same time.

>>
>> My guess was valve guides -- lots of blue right after startup.

>
> But can you figure out a connection to the timing belt breaking? I can't.


My guess was shock from light contact between piston and valves. Enough
to damage stems/guides, but not enough to fail a compression test, is a
stretch I'll grant you...
  #8  
Old May 28th 09, 03:08 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
William R. Walsh
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Posts: 60
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Hi!

> I guess, as you suggest, I could imagine it (as a
> temporary or limp mode) being able to sync up with no crank signal
> before I could imagine it syncing up with no cam signal.


If GM could do it on the late 80s 3800 V6, I'd have to think that Chrysler
could find a way to do it as well. (I have two Buick cars--an 88 and an
89--that both have something wrong with the cam sensing. (It doesn't seem to
be the sensor.) They will run and drive fine. But the ECM can't enter
sequential fuel injection mode without a report from the cam sensor, so it
sets a code.)

But that's neither here nor there, I'm just throwing it out.

William


  #9  
Old May 28th 09, 06:41 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
Daniel Who Wants to Know[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 88
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote in message news:CmmTl.717303$yE1.515731@attbi_s21...
> Hi!
>
>> I guess, as you suggest, I could imagine it (as a
>> temporary or limp mode) being able to sync up with no crank signal
>> before I could imagine it syncing up with no cam signal.

>
> If GM could do it on the late 80s 3800 V6, I'd have to think that Chrysler
> could find a way to do it as well. (I have two Buick cars--an 88 and an
> 89--that both have something wrong with the cam sensing. (It doesn't seem
> to
> be the sensor.) They will run and drive fine. But the ECM can't enter
> sequential fuel injection mode without a report from the cam sensor, so it
> sets a code.)
>
> But that's neither here nor there, I'm just throwing it out.
>
> William
>
>


My aunt's '92 Buick Regal Custom with the 3.8/3800 series I has the MIL on
for the same reason. It came on when I floored it to merge back onto the
interstate while coming back to Iowa from Oklahoma and has been on ever
since. Strangely enough the car seems to run better now than it did before
as before it would chug and sputter for the first ~30 seconds after being
started and now it starts right up and idles smoothly.


  #10  
Old May 28th 09, 11:54 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.chrysler
William R. Walsh
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Posts: 60
Default 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5L - Cranks, will not start

Hi!

> It came on when I floored it to merge back onto the interstate while

coming
> back to Iowa from Oklahoma and has been on ever since.


Interestingly, the '88 Buick turned its light off for quite some time after
I woofed on (="floored it") it one day. I'm not sure why this would have
caused the sensor or whatever excites it (probably magnetic) to start
working. Then the engine light flickered every now and then for a few minuts
and finally it came back on. It has stayed that way since.

On a whim, I tried woofing on the gas in the '89 car while going down the
highway, but it did nothing.

I have no idea what is going on here, and it's off-topic for the group. I
really don't care too much, and the cars don't seem any worse for the wear,
so...

William


 




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