Oil Change Frequency

On 08/04/2010 04:41 AM, ACAR wrote:
> On Jul 26, 3:34�pm, Vincent > wrote:
>> On 7/26/10 12:30 PM, ACAR wrote:
>>
> snip
>> So woudja', huh?
>
> So if Honda is so secure with their algorithm, why do they keep it a
> secret?

it's not - that kind of info is all over the web. it's based on oil
temp and number of revolutions.

now what are you going to do with that info?


> You think a single algorithm can take into account the entire range of
> possible environmental conditions? Or do you think it can account for
> "normal" conditions?

it's a reasonable approximation. if you want to improve on it, you need
on-board opacity, t.b.n. and spectral analysis, and i don't think anyone
does that on road vehicles yet. heck, hardly anyone measures oil level,
and that's the easy one.


>
> Like it or not, Honda is in the business of selling you a car. The
> more often you buy one, the more profit they make.
>
> There's tons of oil analysis data available online at bobistheoilguy.

really? why don't you appear to have read any of it?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 08/04/2010 07:54 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<SbOdndBYp8Ul4cTRnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@speakeasy .net>,
> jim > wrote:
>
>>> So if Honda is so secure with their algorithm, why do they keep it a
>>> secret?
>>
>> it's not - that kind of info is all over the web. it's based on oil
>> temp and number of revolutions.
>
> and outside temperature, no doubt.

don't think so. it's oil temp that matters. outside temp influences
initial, and maybe the high end of summer in vegas, but oil temp is
pretty narrow-band - the rest of the cooling system sees to that.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Aug 4, 10:44*am, jim beam > wrote:
> On 08/04/2010 04:41 AM, ACAR wrote:
>
> it's not - that kind of info is all over the web. *it's based on oil
> temp and number of revolutions.

I know Hondas have a water temperature switch but I hadn't heard they
also have an oil temperature sensor or switch.
>
> now what are you going to do with that info?

well first I'm gonna question whether Honda measures oil temp.
which I don't think they do.

then I'm going to suggest that some other factors (like driving on
dirt roads or sustained high RPM operation) ought to be considered.
>
> > You think a single algorithm can take into account the entire range of
> > possible environmental conditions? Or do you think it can account for
> > "normal" conditions?
>
> it's a reasonable approximation.

reasonable approximation? you're guessing. Honda should publish the
algorithm or at least tell us what variables are used. Elmo thinks
this is some sort of valuable trade secret whereas Honda is probably
obscuring an overly simplistic design. It's an idiot light, nothing
more.
>
> > Like it or not, Honda is in the business of selling you a car. The
> > more often you buy one, the more profit they make.
>
> > There's tons of oil analysis data available online at bobistheoilguy.
>
> really? *why don't you appear to have read any of it?
>
enough to know that a wide range of environmental and operating
variables leads to a wide range of engine oil lifespans.

for the average driver, who NEVER checks their oil level between oil
changes, Toyota's 5000 mile interval is probably a safer long-term bet
than Honda's minder. in a Honda, a driver could go a year between
service whereas Toyota's system is likely to bring them in every 6
months.

On 08/04/10 07:41, ACAR wrote:
> On Jul 26, 3:34 pm, Vincent > wrote:
>> On 7/26/10 12:30 PM, ACAR wrote:
>>
> snip
>> So woudja', huh?
>
> So if Honda is so secure with their algorithm, why do they keep it a
> secret?

Go ask the Coke folks about their formula for Coke. We'll wait, ...

<g>

I can't think of anyone in private enterprise who makes public anything
he/she doesn't have to. They *are* competing with other concerns, you know.

Finally, how do you know the guy you're criticizing doesn't know Honda's
algorithm? If he does, he's probably signed an NDA and couldn't discuss
it anyway.

Take a pill, relax.

On 08/04/2010 05:37 PM, ACAR wrote:
> On Aug 4, 10:44�am, jim > wrote:
>> On 08/04/2010 04:41 AM, ACAR wrote:
>>
>> it's not - that kind of info is all over the web. �it's based on oil
>> temp and number of revolutions.
>
> I know Hondas have a water temperature switch but I hadn't heard they
> also have an oil temperature sensor or switch.

they don't - they have a coolant temp sensor. how much different do you
think oil temp and coolant temps are in an all-aluminum engine where
aluminum is an excellent thermal conductor and the oil's picking up its
heat from that aluminum?


>>
>> now what are you going to do with that info?
>
> well first I'm gonna question whether Honda measures oil temp.
> which I don't think they do.
>
> then I'm going to suggest that some other factors (like driving on
> dirt roads

what difference does that make??? assuming you're sticking with factory
air filtration of course. if you're not using factory filtration, i
don't see that /any/ manufacturer can [or should] model for conditions
they don't control.


> or sustained high RPM operation) ought to be considered.

why? what aspect of high rpm's causes whatever it is you're afraid of?


>>
>>> You think a single algorithm can take into account the entire range of
>>> possible environmental conditions? Or do you think it can account for
>>> "normal" conditions?
>>
>> it's a reasonable approximation.
>
> reasonable approximation? you're guessing.

actually, i'm not. a friend of mine is a software engineer that's
worked on these kinds of systems.


> Honda should publish the
> algorithm or at least tell us what variables are used.

why? so they can be second-guessed by a bunch of internet amateurs?
besides, commercial organizations are obligated to protect their
investments.


> Elmo thinks
> this is some sort of valuable trade secret whereas Honda is probably
> obscuring an overly simplistic design. It's an idiot light, nothing
> more.

and this is a perfect example of why there's nothing to be gained by
publishing stuff - some people will never be satisfied.


>>
>>> Like it or not, Honda is in the business of selling you a car. The
>>> more often you buy one, the more profit they make.
>>
>>> There's tons of oil analysis data available online at bobistheoilguy.
>>
>> really? �why don't you appear to have read any of it?
>>
> enough to know that a wide range of environmental and operating
> variables leads to a wide range of engine oil lifespans.

what "wide range of environmental and operating variables" would these
be then? what are the two conditions that cause the highest rates of
engine wear? what [if anything] do /you/ do to mitigate them?


>
> for the average driver, who NEVER checks their oil level between oil
> changes,

you can only truthfully speak for yourself there dude - how often do you
check /your/ oil?


> Toyota's 5000 mile interval is probably a safer long-term bet
> than Honda's minder.

with 1950's spec motor oil! but if oil is so crappy, why not 3000 miles
- isn't that safer still? what about 1000?


> in a Honda, a driver could go a year between
> service whereas Toyota's system is likely to bring them in every 6
> months.

if we're stuck in your time warp with you, shouldn't we still using
castor oil to lubricate our engines? putting this another way, have you
ever known modern engine oil formulations to actually physically degrade
in 12 months vs 6 months? or are we going to read the owner's manual
and read what the heavily researched and invested manufacturer says on
this subject?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Aug 5, 10:53*am, jim beam > wrote:
> On 08/04/2010 05:37 PM, ACAR wrote:
>
snip

>*or are we going to read the owner's manual
> and read what the heavily researched and invested manufacturer says on
> this subject?
>

Unless you think Toyota doesn't qualify as a "heavily researched and
invested manufacturer" your argument is nonsense.
And if you think a manufacturer's suggested oil change/service
frequency isn't influenced by consumer-organization "total cost of
ownership" calculations, you're naive.

But if you want to suggest to owners that they maintain their cars
according to idiot lights, you go right ahead.

On 08/06/2010 07:27 AM, ACAR wrote:
> On Aug 5, 10:53�am, jim > wrote:
>> On 08/04/2010 05:37 PM, ACAR wrote:
>>
> snip
>
>> �or are we going to read the owner's manual
>> and read what the heavily researched and invested manufacturer says on
>> this subject?
>>
>
> Unless you think Toyota doesn't qualify as a "heavily researched and
> invested manufacturer" your argument is nonsense.
> And if you think a manufacturer's suggested oil change/service
> frequency isn't influenced by consumer-organization "total cost of
> ownership" calculations, you're naive.

why does lexus charge $250 for the same oil change [and same filter!] as
a $70 toyota oil change? could it /possibly/ be anything to do with
revenue generation??? [rhetorical]

well, that's where toyota get their oil change intervals from - it's all
about the $$$'s, nothing to do with actual numbers on oil condition.


>
> But if you want to suggest to owners that they maintain their cars
> according to idiot lights, you go right ahead.

you've clearly never bothered with oil analysis - if you had, you'd know
that honda's oil change algorithm is actually pretty conservative.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"ACAR" > wrote in message
...
> On Aug 5, 10:53 am, jim beam > wrote:
>> On 08/04/2010 05:37 PM, ACAR wrote:
>>
> snip
>
>> or are we going to read the owner's manual
>> and read what the heavily researched and invested manufacturer says on
>> this subject?
>>
>
> Unless you think Toyota doesn't qualify as a "heavily researched and
> invested manufacturer" your argument is nonsense.
> And if you think a manufacturer's suggested oil change/service
> frequency isn't influenced by consumer-organization "total cost of
> ownership" calculations, you're naive.
>
> But if you want to suggest to owners that they maintain their cars
> according to idiot lights, you go right ahead.

Working out fine for me so far. '01 V6 Accord with 257,xxx miles. I use
Carquest brand 5W-30, whatever filter is on sale and don't change the oil
till the "idiot light" tells me to. Only 2 "unscheduled" repairs thus far.
1 wheel bearing and 1 EGR valve (for which there was a TSB on).