for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> C. E. White wrote:
>>
>>> Dusty conditions - how many people actually operate their vehicles in
>>> dusty conditions more than very occasionally? The engines of modern cars
>>> are sealed much more thoroughly than cars from the middle of the last
>>> century. Assuming everything is in good order, the main entry point of
>>> dirt into your engine is through the air cleaner. So make sure you have
>>> a good air cleaner and stay out of volcanic ash...
>>
>> And don't use a K&N filter (and - no - I'm not a troll trying to start a
>> fight with anybody).
>
> Don't go there. I can't even convince my Son he is an idiot for using a
> K&N Air Filter. I keep telling myself, his car, his money.
>
>>> ...BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually a bad idea.
>>
>> Other than unnecessary expense of throwing away an unspent filter, why?
>> You're going to say you need some dust to clog up the bigger holes? Still
>> better than a K&N or equivalent.
>
> Read these references and decide for yourself -
>
> http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-3R3.html
> http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...f ilters.aspx
> http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf -
> go to page 10 or so
>
> My largest farm tractors have air filter restriction gauges (and back-up
> air filters). In 30 years I've had a filter restriction light come on
> once. Still I like to replace the air filters annually because I worry
> about the filters degrading over time.
>
> I wish I had a good picture of peanut picking...then you'd know what real
> dusty conditions are like. I've been in dust so thick you couldn't see
> past the front of the tractor. Not fun...but at least I've always had a
> tractor with a cab. My Dad picked peanuts with open deck tractors.
>
> Ed
>
OK, I'll bite, what's a K&N filter?
--
Joe J.

Joe J wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> C. E. White wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dusty conditions - how many people actually operate their vehicles
>>>> in dusty conditions more than very occasionally? The engines of
>>>> modern cars are sealed much more thoroughly than cars from the
>>>> middle of the last century. Assuming everything is in good order,
>>>> the main entry point of dirt into your engine is through the air
>>>> cleaner. So make sure you have a good air cleaner and stay out of
>>>> volcanic ash...
>>>
>>> And don't use a K&N filter (and - no - I'm not a troll trying to
>>> start a fight with anybody).
>>
>> Don't go there. I can't even convince my Son he is an idiot for using
>> a K&N Air Filter. I keep telling myself, his car, his money.
>>
>>>> ...BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually a bad idea.
>>>
>>> Other than unnecessary expense of throwing away an unspent filter,
>>> why? You're going to say you need some dust to clog up the bigger
>>> holes? Still better than a K&N or equivalent.
>>
>> Read these references and decide for yourself -
>>
>> http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-3R3.html
>> http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...f ilters.aspx
>>
>> http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf
>> - go to page 10 or so
>>
>> My largest farm tractors have air filter restriction gauges (and
>> back-up air filters). In 30 years I've had a filter restriction light
>> come on once. Still I like to replace the air filters annually because
>> I worry about the filters degrading over time.
>>
>> I wish I had a good picture of peanut picking...then you'd know what
>> real dusty conditions are like. I've been in dust so thick you
>> couldn't see past the front of the tractor. Not fun...but at least
>> I've always had a tractor with a cab. My Dad picked peanuts with open
>> deck tractors.
>>
>> Ed
>>
> OK, I'll bite, what's a K&N filter?

Looks like this:
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/weberR2.asp

K&N makes all kinds of equipment but that's their 'classic'
style.
http://www.knfilters.com/universal/universal.htm
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:04:37 -0400, "C. E. White"
> wrote:

>
>"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
>> C. E. White wrote:
>>
>>> Dusty conditions - how many people actually operate their vehicles
>>> in dusty conditions more than very occasionally? The engines of
>>> modern cars are sealed much more thoroughly than cars from the
>>> middle of the last century. Assuming everything is in good order,
>>> the main entry point of dirt into your engine is through the air
>>> cleaner. So make sure you have a good air cleaner and stay out of
>>> volcanic ash...
>>
>> And don't use a K&N filter (and - no - I'm not a troll trying to
>> start a fight with anybody).
>
>Don't go there. I can't even convince my Son he is an idiot for using
>a K&N Air Filter. I keep telling myself, his car, his money.
>
>>> ...BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually a bad idea.
>>
>> Other than unnecessary expense of throwing away an unspent filter,
>> why? You're going to say you need some dust to clog up the bigger
>> holes? Still better than a K&N or equivalent.
>
>Read these references and decide for yourself -
>
>http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-3R3.html
>http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...f ilters.aspx
>http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf
> - go to page 10 or so
>
>My largest farm tractors have air filter restriction gauges (and
>back-up air filters). In 30 years I've had a filter restriction light
>come on once. Still I like to replace the air filters annually because
>I worry about the filters degrading over time.
>
>I wish I had a good picture of peanut picking...then you'd know what
>real dusty conditions are like. I've been in dust so thick you
>couldn't see past the front of the tractor. Not fun...but at least
>I've always had a tractor with a cab. My Dad picked peanuts with open
>deck tractors.
>
>Ed
>
Try combining wheat that's been down for a couple weeks and rained on
2 or 3 times - - - - -

C. E. White wrote:
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> C. E. White wrote:

>> And don't use a K&N filter (and - no - I'm not a troll trying to
>> start a fight with anybody).
>
> Don't go there. I can't even convince my Son he is an idiot for using
> a K&N Air Filter. I keep telling myself, his car, his money.
>
>>> ...BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually a bad idea.
>> Other than unnecessary expense of throwing away an unspent filter,
>> why? You're going to say you need some dust to clog up the bigger
>> holes? Still better than a K&N or equivalent.
>
> Read these references and decide for yourself -
>
> http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-3R3.html
> http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...f ilters.aspx
> http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf
> - go to page 10 or so
>
> My largest farm tractors have air filter restriction gauges (and
> back-up air filters). In 30 years I've had a filter restriction light
> come on once. Still I like to replace the air filters annually because
> I worry about the filters degrading over time.
>
> I wish I had a good picture of peanut picking...then you'd know what
> real dusty conditions are like. I've been in dust so thick you
> couldn't see past the front of the tractor. Not fun...but at least
> I've always had a tractor with a cab. My Dad picked peanuts with open
> deck tractors.

If I read your links right, it is a combination of things - mainly a
filter gets better in early part of usage from the bigger holes getting
blocked by dirt, and every time you mess with your filter, you run the
risk of accumulations of dust/dirt falling into the ducting downstream
of the filter barrier point.

I work in a mining area, and there's a 3/4 mile of dirt/gravel road I
travel into and out of my office every week day. Not nearly what
agricultural dust is like during your various plowing and harvesting
operations, but I do have to change air filter way more often than the
typical motorist.

I was getting ready to post a link to the Spicer air filter study, but
all the links I have appear to be inactive. Anybody have a working link
for that?

For reference, here are a couple of links that used to work in the past:
http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

These links, in which the guy who did the study tells about interaction
with K&N over the study, are still good:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55604
http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66536

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

On Apr 3, 11:35*am, jim beam > wrote:

>
> >> next time you get sick, doubtless you're going to resort to burning
> >> camphor and bread poultices. those "doctor" people and their
> >> new-fangled "technology" and "drugs" clearly don't know what they're doing.
>
> > generally, drug researchers don't make unqualified long term claims
> > based on short term tests.
>
> eh??? *have you any idea how long it takes to get a drug approved? *how
> much testing is involved? *[rhetorical - because you clearly don't.]
>

uh, YOU were the one making a comparison with drugs.
the comment I made had nothing to do with process, only the result.
try to keep up.

>
> no, tests provide proof.

Not poorly designed tests. They prove nothing. In fact, they often
lead to the wrong conclusions. Just like in this case.

>
> yeah, i'm the guy that makes **** happen.

that you make **** happen; that I can believe.


*you're the idiot that just
> stands about with your thumb up your ass bitching about stuff you don't
> understand.
>
and how many papers in scientific journals have you published?

yeah, that's what I thought.

>

On Apr 4, 5:18*pm, wrote:

>
> *MY source is a couple mechanics who work at the local Toyota
> dealerships. They have not had a SINGLE coked engine failure on
> vehicles following the severe service schedule, or using synthetics on
> the standard schedule.
>
> Same with mechanics at the local Mopar dealership.
>
> And they had a LOT of problem engines using the specified standard oil
> on the "normal" change schedule. The problem is obvious - the oil not
> being changed often enough for conditions.
> This is NOT to say there was not a problem with the engine design that
> made *the operatring conditions for the oil more onerous than they
> needed to be.

The OP claims that all passenger cars will run fine using a 10,000
mile oil change interval.

Your research indicates that both Toyota and Mopar techs consider that
to be bad advice since 10,000 miles is LONG past their normal
maintenance schedule.

Perhaps the OP should go back and reconsider the test before he goes
off half-cocked again. On the other hand, the OP really believes that
all accumulated observations are worthless compared with a
quantitative result from a single, poorly designed test. Well, all
observations other than his own.

On 04/05/10 20:50, C. E. White wrote:
>
> "Vic Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Which throws out all the prescriptions you've seen here, and says,
>> "You know how your car is driven, so change as you see fit, and live
>> with the consequences."
>> Reject oil change nannyism!
>
> Good advice assuming you actually have any idea of how well your oil is
> holding up and why you might want to change it more often than required
> by the "normal" schedule.
>
> It might be worthwhile to consider why some activities are considered
> severe...
>
> Short trip in very cold weather - I say the reason this might
> necessitate more frequent oil changes is because of contamination from
> water and unburned hydrocarbons (blow-by past the rings). If you never
> take trips longer than 10 miles or so, then I can see where this should
> force more often oil changes. On the other hand, modern cars have
> reduced problems with blow-by (better control of manufacturing
> tolerances), warm up faster and run hotter than cars from the middle of
> the last century, and modern oils better tolerate contamination. So I
> suppose when you operate your car in very cold temperatures and only
> make short trips, then 3000 mile oil changes are justifiable, although
> to be sure, have your oil analyzed at least once might provide valuable
> information.
>
> Towing - towing increases the load on the engine which results in higher
> oil temperatures and higher shearing forces on the oil, which can lead
> to oil breakdown. Of course if you are only towing a light trailer
> occasionally this is probably not a significant concern. And vehicles
> designed to tow heavy things, usually have better oil systems (they have
> higher oil capacities, include oil coolers, are geared properly for
> towing, etc.). Here is an interesting fact - oil usually thickens with
> age (becomes less viscous). I don't think the increased loads are much
> of an issue for high quality modern oil, particularly synthetic oils. So
> unless you are towing a trailer near the maximum allowable weight most
> of the times, 'I'd say you can ignore this reason for more frequent oil
> changes.
>
> Stop and go driving, particularly in hot weather - In the past (like
> 1960) cars often ran hot in stop and go driving. Running hot could cause
> oil to break down - at least the sorts of oil commonly used in the
> 1960's. These days most cars have very good cooling systems. When was
> the last time you had a car run hot while in traffic? If you have a car
> with electric fans, I doubt you have, unless something is broken. Stop
> and go driving doesn't impose any sort of heavy loads on the engine -
> just the brakes and transmission. So I contend that unless you have
> overheated your car, there is no reason to change the engine oil more
> often merely because you do a lot of stop and go driving. Maybe your
> transmission and brakes need extra attention, but probably not your
> engine oil.
>
> Dusty conditions - how many people actually operate their vehicles in
> dusty conditions more than very occasionally? The engines of modern cars
> are sealed much more thoroughly than cars from the middle of the last
> century. Assuming everything is in good order, the main entry point of
> dirt into your engine is through the air cleaner. So make sure you have
> a good air cleaner and stay out of volcanic ash and I think you don't
> need to worry about dusty conditions. Let the looks of your air filter
> be your guide. BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually a bad
> idea.

Good post, IMHO, but I'm curious why you say this? <NB - a straight
question, not challenging you - always happy to learn something new>

TonyH

On 04/06/10 18:25, AMuzi wrote:
> Joe J wrote:
>>
>> "C. E. White" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> C. E. White wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dusty conditions - how many people actually operate their vehicles
>>>>> in dusty conditions more than very occasionally? The engines of
>>>>> modern cars are sealed much more thoroughly than cars from the
>>>>> middle of the last century. Assuming everything is in good order,
>>>>> the main entry point of dirt into your engine is through the air
>>>>> cleaner. So make sure you have a good air cleaner and stay out of
>>>>> volcanic ash...
>>>>
>>>> And don't use a K&N filter (and - no - I'm not a troll trying to
>>>> start a fight with anybody).
>>>
>>> Don't go there. I can't even convince my Son he is an idiot for using
>>> a K&N Air Filter. I keep telling myself, his car, his money.
>>>
>>>>> ...BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually a bad idea.
>>>>
>>>> Other than unnecessary expense of throwing away an unspent filter,
>>>> why? You're going to say you need some dust to clog up the bigger
>>>> holes? Still better than a K&N or equivalent.
>>>
>>> Read these references and decide for yourself -
>>>
>>> http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-3R3.html
>>> http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...f ilters.aspx
>>>
>>> http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf -
>>> go to page 10 or so
>>>
>>> My largest farm tractors have air filter restriction gauges (and
>>> back-up air filters). In 30 years I've had a filter restriction light
>>> come on once. Still I like to replace the air filters annually
>>> because I worry about the filters degrading over time.
>>>
>>> I wish I had a good picture of peanut picking...then you'd know what
>>> real dusty conditions are like. I've been in dust so thick you
>>> couldn't see past the front of the tractor. Not fun...but at least
>>> I've always had a tractor with a cab. My Dad picked peanuts with open
>>> deck tractors.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>> OK, I'll bite, what's a K&N filter?
>
> Looks like this:
> http://www.carburetion.com/weber/weberR2.asp

Webers! Wow, talk about a trip down memory lane - my old Porsche 911S
had twin 3-barreled Webers.

On 03/31/10 08:33, Mark wrote:
> If there are other pools of oil in the engine, why doesn't the oil
> turn dark right away? What is the percentage difference between 5%
> old oil left and 1%? Think it's 4%?

Of what? 4% is indeed 5% - 4%; however, 5% = 1% * 5 as well.

"Tony Harding" > wrote in message
...

>> Dusty conditions - how many people actually operate their vehicles
>> in
>> dusty conditions more than very occasionally? The engines of modern
>> cars
>> are sealed much more thoroughly than cars from the middle of the
>> last
>> century. Assuming everything is in good order, the main entry point
>> of
>> dirt into your engine is through the air cleaner. So make sure you
>> have
>> a good air cleaner and stay out of volcanic ash and I think you
>> don't
>> need to worry about dusty conditions. Let the looks of your air
>> filter
>> be your guide. BTW, changing your air filter too often is actually
>> a bad
>> idea.
>
> Good post, IMHO, but I'm curious why you say this? <NB - a straight
> question, not challenging you - always happy to learn something new>

Read these references and decide for yourself -

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-3R3.html
http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...f ilters.aspx
http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf
- go to page 10 or so