Sermons

In article >,
Rusty Shackleford > wrote:

> On 11/25/2010 10:30 AM, John J Stafford wrote:
>
> >
> > Not quite. The copyright must be registered before you go into court or
> > the case will not be heard. First things first.
>
> You're wrong here brother. That was the rule years ago but hasn't been
> the case for some time now. I deal with both patent and copyright in my
> work and what you've been told is true. The moment an author reduces an
> idea to a medium (paper, canvass, stone, CD, DVD, etc.) the author owns
> the copyright.
> Technically, you don't even have to put a copyright
> notice (i.e. "Copyright Bob Hoover Enterprises 1999") though many still
> do.

I know that and I never contradicted what you wrote above. I was
speaking of what one has to do if he takes a copyright infringement
issue to court for damages. I was not speaking of what copyright is!

> If you ever have to go to court you have to prove that you are the
> author and when it was reduced to medium, but once that is accomplished
> you are the clear and legal owner of the work.

"In order to bring a claim for copyright infringement, a plaintiff must
establish (1) ownership of a valid copyright, and (2) copying of
protected elements of the plaintiff¹s work. Ordinarily, ownership is
established by way of a copyright registration certificate and tends NOT
to be the subject of much debate."

I repeat, and I stand by the following:

"Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, copyright
registration is necessary for works of U.S. origin."

Next?

I make a photograph. It is automatically my copyrighted material, but
regress due to infringement is not automatic.

I do not file to register the copyright. Later, someone copies it, then
uses it in a commercial advertisement, but I do not learn of it for
three years.

If I want to receive compensatory damages for infringement, then before
I file I must REGISTER the copyright, or the court won't hear the case.

"For works created in the US by US citizens, a registration is also
required before an infringement suit may be filed in a US court."

So, presuming the court sees it our way, I can receive compensation for
infringement, but I won't get all I could because:

"copyright holders cannot claim statutory damages or attorney's fees
unless the work was registered prior to infringement, or within three
months of publication"

Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
copyright law (link here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):

Begin Quote:

"Copyright law is different from country to country, and a copyright
notice is required in about 20 countries for a work to be protected
under copyright.[30] Before 1989, all published works in the US had to
contain a copyright notice, the © symbol followed by the publication
date and copyright owner's name, to be protected by copyright. This is
no longer the case and use of a copyright notice is now optional in the
US, though they are still used.[31]

In all countries that are members of the Berne Convention, copyright is
automatic and need not be obtained through official registration with
any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form,
for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet
music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright
holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights. However,
while registration isn't needed to exercise copyright, in jurisdictions
where the laws provide for registration, it serves as prima facie
evidence of a valid copyright. The original copyright owner of the
copyright may be the employer of the author rather than the author
himself, if the work is a "work for hire"."

End Quote:

The U.S. is a signatory of the Berne Convention as of 1989. Since that
time, it is not required for a work to be marked with a copyright notice
nor is it required that a work be registered with a copyright office in
order for the work to be protected by U.S. and International copyright
law. Once an idea is "reduced to medium" (written down, chiseled into
stone, painted onto canvas, developed on photographic paper, stored on a
computer system, etc.) it is at *that moment* protected by U.S.
copyright law and other International copyright laws (in countries that
are signatories to certain conventions such as the Berne Convention).
End of story. The only relevance of registering a work or attaching a
copyright notice is that it can assist in establishing evidence
authorship or time of creation and it can indeed cause punitive damages
(i.e. triple or "treble" damages) to be invoked in a case where a
defendant wantonly violates a copyright with foreknowledge. Registering
a work with the copyright office has exactly zero to do with conferring
protected copyright status to a work. Bob Hoover's Sermons were
copyrighted the moment he hit "Save" on his word processor. End of story.

Next ......

In article >,
Rusty Shackleford > wrote:

> Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
> copyright law (link here
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):

Hey, Rusty - the issue is how one applies for redress for copyright
infringement. Read what I wrote and stop trying to buffalo a guy who
studied law at the highest institution and was at the top of his class.

If you want to purse a case of infringement in the USA, and you are a US
citizen, then you MUST REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT before filing a court
case.

Nuff said

--
John - who found law easy, and VW mechanics difficult

On 11/27/2010 9:03 PM, John J Stafford wrote:
> In >,
> Rusty > wrote:
>
>> Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
>> copyright law (link here
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):
>
> Hey, Rusty - the issue is how one applies for redress for copyright
> infringement. Read what I wrote and stop trying to buffalo a guy who
> studied law at the highest institution and was at the top of his class.
>
> If you want to purse a case of infringement in the USA, and you are a US
> citizen, then you MUST REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT before filing a court
> case.
>
> Nuff said
>
> --
> John - who found law easy, and VW mechanics difficult

Shall we swap where we got our JD's from and in what year? Your
information is dated. Since 1989 no registration of copyright is
required to acquire copyright protection nor is it required to file a
civil tort to enforce that copyright. That was the law prior to 1989,
it no longer is.

Are you currently in practice?

On 11/27/2010 10:03 PM, John J Stafford wrote:
> In >,
> Rusty > wrote:
>
>> Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
>> copyright law (link here
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):
>
> Hey, Rusty - the issue is how one applies for redress for copyright
> infringement. Read what I wrote and stop trying to buffalo a guy who
> studied law at the highest institution and was at the top of his class.
>
> If you want to purse a case of infringement in the USA, and you are a US
> citizen, then you MUST REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT before filing a court
> case.
>
> Nuff said
>
> --
> John - who found law easy, and VW mechanics difficult

Just to be clear here...

OWNING copyright the instant the work was created, is not unclear or
challenged here. Right?


How to prepare a court case to defend your copyright, involves a bunch
of steps to be taken, one of which appears to be registering your
copyright prior to going to court. You could have done that the day you
created your piece of whatever, or months later, or not until you needed
to defend your copyright in court. Just so long as you do it.
Am I still following you?

Then, in court, you will need to be able to show some sort of proof that
you own the copyright, i.e. you created whatever it was you are claiming
as yours.
Whether the registration helps that or is irrelevant to the actual
process of showing proof, is unclear to me. Maybe it's just a required
step in the process, one that really has no effect in the outcome of the
whole deal. Not part of proof, but just a part of silly legal procedure.
In other words, useless red tape just to make the process more
complicated for the sole purpose of appeasing the bureucrats' desire and
hunger for complicated processes

In article >,
Jan Andersson > wrote:

> On 11/27/2010 10:03 PM, John J Stafford wrote:
> > In >,
> > Rusty > wrote:
> >
> >> Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
> >> copyright law (link here
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):
> >
> > Hey, Rusty - the issue is how one applies for redress for copyright
> > infringement. Read what I wrote and stop trying to buffalo a guy who
> > studied law at the highest institution and was at the top of his class.
> >
> > If you want to purse a case of infringement in the USA, and you are a US
> > citizen, then you MUST REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT before filing a court
> > case.
> >
> > Nuff said
> >
> > --
> > John - who found law easy, and VW mechanics difficult
>
> Just to be clear here...
>
> OWNING copyright the instant the work was created, is not unclear or
> challenged here. Right?

No, and I made that perfectly clear. You create it, then you own the
copyright at that instant.


> How to prepare a court case to defend your copyright, involves a bunch
> of steps to be taken, one of which appears to be registering your
> copyright prior to going to court. You could have done that the day you
> created your piece of whatever, or months later, or not until you needed
> to defend your copyright in court. Just so long as you do it.
> Am I still following you?

You can pursue a copyright infringement without the court, however to
bring a case to court you must register the copyright before you apply
for a court hearing.

> Then, in court, you will need to be able to show some sort of proof that
> you own the copyright, i.e. you created whatever it was you are claiming
> as yours.

Among other things. The 'other things' are what complicate copyright
proceedings, and why every case is determined on a case-by-case basis.

> Whether the registration helps that or is irrelevant to the actual
> process of showing proof, is unclear to me. Maybe it's just a required
> step in the process, one that really has no effect in the outcome of the
> whole deal. Not part of proof, but just a part of silly legal procedure.
> In other words, useless red tape just to make the process more
> complicated for the sole purpose of appeasing the bureucrats' desire and
> hunger for complicated processes

Requiring registration is useful to the court because the application
for Copyright clarifies the fundamental details, and an approved
registration means that experts have determined certain veracity. It
eliminates some arguments of minutiae so the court can decide upon the
hard part: the spirit of the law.

In article >,
Rusty Shackleford > wrote:

> On 11/27/2010 9:03 PM, John J Stafford wrote:
> > In >,
> > Rusty > wrote:
> >
> >> Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
> >> copyright law (link here
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):
> >
> > Hey, Rusty - the issue is how one applies for redress for copyright
> > infringement. Read what I wrote and stop trying to buffalo a guy who
> > studied law at the highest institution and was at the top of his class.
> >
> > If you want to purse a case of infringement in the USA, and you are a US
> > citizen, then you MUST REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT before filing a court
> > case.
> >
> > Nuff said
> >
> > --
> > John - who found law easy, and VW mechanics difficult
>
> Shall we swap where we got our JD's from and in what year? Your
> information is dated. Since 1989 no registration of copyright is
> required to acquire copyright protection nor is it required to file a
> civil tort to enforce that copyright. That was the law prior to 1989,
> it no longer is.

I wonder if our disagreement is due to our country. I am speaking of the
USA where for works of US origin, one must register prior to filing a
suit. The same is not true of countries within the Berne Convention (BC)
(since 1989, as you noted), specifically, in 1989 the BC stated that
works originating in BC countries do not require registration in the US
Copyright Office. (That made a lot of sense.) Could that be our case
here?

Otherwise, for works of US. origin registration prior to filing suit is
required.

> Are you currently in practice?

No, I decided not to pursue a degree. I went to war instead.

A picture from my seat in class.
http://www.digoliardi.net/ra_epstein2.jpg

For a beer on me (however you wish to apply that), name the instructor.

Best,
John

On Nov 28, 10:14*am, John J Stafford > wrote:.
>
> A picture from my seat in class.http://www.digoliardi.net/ra_epstein2.jpg
>
> For a beer on me (however you wish to apply that), name the instructor.
>

Well the name of the .JPG pretty much gives that away...

T.

In article >,
John J Stafford > wrote:

> In article >,
> Rusty Shackleford > wrote:
>
> > On 11/27/2010 9:03 PM, John J Stafford wrote:
> > > In >,
> > > Rusty > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Let me quote to you from the Wikipedia's fairly decent entry on
> > >> copyright law (link here
> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...ght_by_country ):
> > >
> > > Hey, Rusty - the issue is how one applies for redress for copyright
> > > infringement. Read what I wrote and stop trying to buffalo a guy who
> > > studied law at the highest institution and was at the top of his class.
> > >
> > > If you want to purse a case of infringement in the USA, and you are a US
> > > citizen, then you MUST REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT before filing a court
> > > case.
> > >
> > > Nuff said
> > >
> > > --
> > > John - who found law easy, and VW mechanics difficult
> >
> > Shall we swap where we got our JD's from and in what year? Your
> > information is dated. Since 1989 no registration of copyright is
> > required to acquire copyright protection nor is it required to file a
> > civil tort to enforce that copyright. That was the law prior to 1989,
> > it no longer is.
>
> I wonder if our disagreement is due to our country. I am speaking of the
> USA where for works of US origin, one must register prior to filing a
> suit. The same is not true of countries within the Berne Convention (BC)
> (since 1989, as you noted), specifically, in 1989 the BC stated that
> works originating in BC countries do not require registration in the US
> Copyright Office. (That made a lot of sense.) Could that be our case
> here?
>
> Otherwise, for works of US. origin registration prior to filing suit is
> required.
>
> > Are you currently in practice?
>
> No, I decided not to pursue a degree. I went to war instead.
>
> A picture from my seat in class.
> http://www.digoliardi.net/ra_epstein2.jpg
>
> For a beer on me (however you wish to apply that), name the instructor.
>
> Best,
> John

Replying to my own post - I conclude that the discussion has been
gracefully closed.