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  #21  
Old April 10th 05, 02:05 PM
Andy Turner
external usenet poster
 
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On 8 Apr 2005 13:01:37 -0700, wrote:

>
>Ronny wrote:
>> "charles blassberg" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Can we pls keep on topic within a thread?

>>
>> This is usenet, offtopic is part of the fun time, get used to it.

>
>And what's even more humorous is that the meta-discussion couldn't just
>reside in the original thread - no, perish the thought - it had to
>spawn TWO new threads, including this one! On-topic, LOL.
>
>Let's all start posting in all-caps, HTML, with attached binaries.
>After all, any preference is valid, right?


If a preference works for a great many people (as top-posting does),
then it must be valid. I don't see thousands of people posting in
all-caps. Your analogy therefore is not valid.

Do you think all usenet posts should be in English, since that is your
preferred language?


andyt

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  #22  
Old April 10th 05, 02:07 PM
Andy Turner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 9 Apr 2005 08:57:18 -0700, wrote:

>
>Andy Turner wrote:
>> On 8 Apr 2005 21:43:50 -0700,
wrote:
>> >
>> >I guess that maybe top-posting Audi drivers would hold the speed

>limit
>> >in the passing lane. Since only *they* matter, that's what you

>could
>> >expect. Or some other MFFY* driving habit. After all, differing
>> >styles must be accomadated.

>>
>> Different styles of driving *are* accomodated, as are different modes
>> of transport and indeed different models of car.

>
>You mean like driving 5 under in a passing lane? Or those folks who
>swing wide for right turns, blocking two lanes? Folks who stop
>needlessly on on-ramps, because they can't figure out how to merge?
>Dream up some other legal, but discourteous traffic behavior that suits
>the scenario. There are probably thousands. But you get the point.


The only point I see is that you just *cannot* bring yourself to
appreciate that top-posting is a preferred and welcomed style by
thousands upon thousands of people. Your analogies are always wrong
because they are with practices which are either dangerous or entirely
unaccepted. Y'see those are not driving styles that are perfectly
accepted and welcomed by loads of other people. However top-posting
*is* perfectly accepted and welcomed by thousands of people.

Your analogy fails.

If you want to compare top-posting to something else, then you have to
compare it to something which is also preferred by a great many people
- such as motorbikes versus cars.


>Unlike you, I support courtesy. You support "if it feels good, do it -
>to hell with the rest of you."


Again, wrong. You do not support courtesy because you expect other
people to adopt your preferences. It's selfish and it's ignorant.



>> Since you (presumably) drive an Audi, do you expect that everyone
>> drives one since that is your preference?

>
>Have I ever said that?


No, it was a question <doh>. The question still remains - do you
expect that everyone should follow your preference WRT the car you
drive?



>> Do you think people that drive other models are wrong?

>
>Have I ever said that?


Again, no - it was a *question*. If you'd already said it, I wouldn't
be asking would I...


>
>> Do you think motorbikes should be outlawed too?

>
>Have I ever said that?


Er.. right, once again.. it's a *question*.


However, I think you're perhaps getting the point. To make such
requests based on your own preferences would be ridiculous. I'm glad
to see that in at least some walks of life, you're happy to accept the
choices other people make and don't expect them to make the same
choices as you.




>> Incidentally, it speaks volumes that you've bailed out of replying to
>> any message of mine, yet you're still sniping and whining elsewhere.

>
>It speaks volumes that you are running around a.a.a


Running around?! LOL!


> humping my posts trying to goad me into a flamewar.


This is not about a flamewar (have I flamed you *at all*?), this is
merely trying to help you adjust your self-centered attitude with
regard to expecting everyone else to adopt your preferences. Whenever
I back you inter a corner, you bail. However, you then start to whine
elsewhere with the same botched and false arguments. This, as I say,
speaks volumes.


> Find another hobby.


I would suggest the same WRT your top-post whining. If you hadn't
decided to start moaning about it, I wouldn't be responding now would
I..


andyt

  #23  
Old April 10th 05, 02:08 PM
Andy Turner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:36:21 -0400, Jules
> wrote:

>Perhaps it is a throwback to the old days. When downloads took so long,
>the person forgot what was being said. So it was nice to have all laid
>out in order, when you got back from the bathroom or what ever. I really
>don't see it being easier to read bottom posting. But then I started
>reading both ways. In fact when I think about it, I like quoted
>references underneath, kinda like a footnote. Like everything else,
>primacy rules. Meaning what you learned the first time, is what you will
>stick to.


Good points, very well put.

The demographics and usage patterns of the internet have changed
massively over the years and this is due in large to the way the
technology is changed. Years ago, people would be on dial-up and would
access usenet once or twice a day. Trimming was much more important
then. Now that people can dip into usenet far more often for shorter
times, a much chattier style of post has emerged - posts that often
contain only a single point. These posts do not require context
quoting, hence top-posting makes the most sense.

Times have changed, that's all.


andyt

  #25  
Old April 10th 05, 02:10 PM
Andy Turner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:40:13 +0200, Arne > wrote:

>Once upon a time *Dave LaCourse* wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:34:20 +0000 (UTC), Andy Turner
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Times have changed, they really have. It's only considered poor
>>>netiquette by those who don't like it. Everyone else just uses it and
>>>gets on with it.

>>
>> Times have NOT changed. Noticed I clipped all of your message and
>> mine simply to reply to what is relevent. Go to other newsgroups and
>> you will find a majority of the people do NOT top post.
>>
>> I agree with your estimation of quote after quote after quote. That
>> too is impolite. Simply quote what you wish to talk about. Very
>> simple. I bet you could do it without even trying. d;o)
>>

>
>Little guideness (also in my sig):
>http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post


These are only someone's opinions put down in HTML. Bear this in mind.



andyt

  #26  
Old April 10th 05, 03:01 PM
Arne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Once upon a time *Andy Turner* wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:40:13 +0200, Arne > wrote:
>
>>Once upon a time *Dave LaCourse* wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:34:20 +0000 (UTC), Andy Turner
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Times have changed, they really have. It's only considered poor
>>>>netiquette by those who don't like it. Everyone else just uses it and
>>>>gets on with it.
>>>
>>> Times have NOT changed. Noticed I clipped all of your message and
>>> mine simply to reply to what is relevent. Go to other newsgroups and
>>> you will find a majority of the people do NOT top post.
>>>
>>> I agree with your estimation of quote after quote after quote. That
>>> too is impolite. Simply quote what you wish to talk about. Very
>>> simple. I bet you could do it without even trying. d;o)
>>>

>>
>>Little guideness (also in my sig):
>>http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

>
> These are only someone's opinions put down in HTML. Bear this in mind.
>
>


Supported by a large majority of posters in the groups I participate in.


--
/Arne

Top posters will be ignored. Quote the part you
are replying to, no more and no less! And don't
quote signatures, thank you.
  #27  
Old April 10th 05, 04:57 PM
Andy Turner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:01:28 +0200, Arne > wrote:

>Once upon a time *Andy Turner* wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:40:13 +0200, Arne > wrote:
>>
>>>Little guideness (also in my sig):
>>>http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

>>
>> These are only someone's opinions put down in HTML. Bear this in mind.
>>

>
>Supported by a large majority of posters in the groups I participate in.


Majority preference doesn't make minority preferences invalid or
incorrect - and it would be ludicrous to think that majority
preferences should be stamped out just because they are a minority.

Think about how that would translate to real life - it would seem
ridiculous would it not?



andyt

  #28  
Old April 10th 05, 06:05 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Jules wrote:
> EP
>
> This is different, than your escalated situations.


Only as a matter of degree, not type. Some folks have preferences for
chewing with their mouth open, or passing gas in public. If anything
is acceptable, everything is acceptable.

> I hope you find a newsgrope that still posts to your liking. Perhaps
> join in one of those societies that does historic recreations. Or
> society for creative anachronisms?


Actually, most posts in most newsgroups are still posted correctly.
Top-posters are yet a small minority.

> Etiquette is making someone feel comfortable, but it does have
> standards. Not pushing standards on people.


Wrong. Folks who are deliberately rude often find themselves on the
outside looking in. Post OT, all in caps, binaries, etc, and you find
yourself killfiled or your account TOS-terminated in short order.

> Try and get some joy out of life.


Amusingly ironic.

> Top post, bottom post, there seems to be a logic in having the most
> recent comment at the top.


The very same logic that says things should be read from bottom to top.
Newsgroups aren't threaded from newest to oldest, at least not in any
newsreader I've seen. Even so, most newsreaders will display posts
with the newest content, then thread them by first to last post.
Top-down.

> React how you want. But I wouldn't do what you do.


Post correctly? Of course not. After all, whatever *you* want is the
only important thing.

E.P.

  #29  
Old April 10th 05, 06:31 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Andy Turner wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2005 08:57:18 -0700, wrote:
> There are probably thousands. But you get the point.
>
> The only point I see is that you just *cannot* bring yourself to
> appreciate that top-posting is a preferred and welcomed style by
> thousands upon thousands of people.


I see it just fine. They are in a small minority, and are generally
repudiated.

> Your analogies are always wrong
> because they are with practices which are either dangerous or

entirely
> unaccepted.


Heh. Driving the speed limit in the passing lane is not inherently
dangerous, and is not illegal everywhere. Posting in caps or html
might run afoul of some newsgroup charters, but in alt.* groups, most
anything goes. That does not imply that those behaviors are not rude.

It's merely a matter of degree.


> Y'see those are not driving styles that are perfectly
> accepted and welcomed by loads of other people.


LOL. You have just abdicated the argument. Those behaviors are on
display every day, by hundreds of people. And that's just in this
area. In big cities, you'll see multiples of the same rude driving
behavior.

> However top-posting
> *is* perfectly accepted and welcomed by thousands of people.


People still claim the world is flat, that the moon landings were
faked, and that the Earth is 6000 years old.

Doesn't make them any less wrong for holding sincerely onto their false
beliefs.

> If you want to compare top-posting to something else, then you have

to
> compare it to something which is also preferred by a great many

people
> - such as motorbikes versus cars.


Riding a motorbike (the mere act of riding) has never been considered
rude behavior. Your analogy fails miserably. Grasp another straw.

> >Unlike you, I support courtesy. You support "if it feels good, do

it -
> >to hell with the rest of you."

>
> Again, wrong. You do not support courtesy because you expect other
> people to adopt your preferences. It's selfish and it's ignorant.


If they were merely *my* preferences, you'd have a point. But they
were standards of behavior set long before your or I ever wrote our
first usenet posts.

> >> Since you (presumably) drive an Audi, do you expect that everyone
> >> drives one since that is your preference?

> >
> >Have I ever said that?

>
> No, it was a question <doh>.


An attempt at a strawman construction. As are the rest of the
"questions." Again, these standards exist separate of me. The
majority holds them as correct.

> However, I think you're perhaps getting the point. To make such
> requests based on your own preferences would be ridiculous.


If proper posting were merely my own preference, you'd be entirely
correct. But it is not. It is the preference of the majority, and
existed previous to MS Outlook and other wrongly-top-post-default
programs.

> I'm glad
> to see that in at least some walks of life, you're happy to accept

the
> choices other people make and don't expect them to make the same
> choices as you.


In matters of ettiquette, I *do* expect people to make the same
choices. That's how a community gets along. I don't clog the passing
lane, and I expect my fellow drivers to do the same. I use center turn
lanes, don't swing wide to turn right, don't left turn into the far
right lane, and all sorts of other driving behavior that helps everyone
(including me) get where they are going with the least amount of
hassle.

> >It speaks volumes that you are running around a.a.a

>
> Running around?! LOL!


A figure of speech. Finding all of my posts and humping them to pound
your chest.


> > humping my posts trying to goad me into a flamewar.

>
> This is not about a flamewar (have I flamed you *at all*?)


Sure, if name-calling or other ad hominem commentary can be called
flaming.

> this is
> merely trying to help you adjust your self-centered attitude with
> regard to expecting everyone else to adopt your preferences.


Again, they are not merely *my* preferences.

>
> > Find another hobby.

>
> I would suggest the same WRT your top-post whining. If you hadn't
> decided to start moaning about it, I wouldn't be responding now would
> I..


So, you can't control your own posting. Sad.

E.P.

 




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