2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2

E.R. > haute in die Tasten:

> I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain
> German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :}
>

Exactly. The german manufacturers BMW, Mercedes and VW Group agreed upon
making cars not faster than 155 mph. Maybe also other manufacturers took
part, but they currently do not sell such fast cars in Germany. The reason
for that was avoiding a state law (which would probably have limited the
cars at a lower level) and avoiding a reckless speed race. They also wanted
to avoid the need for use of expensive and uncomfortable high performance
tires. When the agreeent was imposed some years ago, it was not regarded
likely that the manufacturers would make sedans with 500 HP;-)

Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this agreement
to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits only the cars
sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the Mercedes-AMG models can go
faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher speed limits for their M-cars
under certain condition (M3 CSL with 175 mph for buyers who can show a race
drivers license). IMHO the marketing problem for the company is to sell the
top of the line cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of
the line.

Frank

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In message >
Frank Kemper > wrote:

[Snip]

> Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this
> agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits
> only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the
> Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher
> speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with
> 175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license).

.... and Audi (or, rather, quattro gmbh) fudge the issue by saying that
their cars are limited to 155mph (or, to be precise, 250kph), but then
describing this as a 'soft' limit. It is quite clear that the RS4 and
RS6 models are capable of comfortably exceeding 250kph (not that I've
been brave enough to prove this in our land of 70mph limits).

--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')

"Frank Kemper" > wrote in message
...

> IMHO the marketing problem for the company is to sell the
> top of the line cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of
> the line.

An interesting thing (at least to me anyway :^) came to mind while reading
this. It seems that for Europeans, when speaking about a "fast" car...it is
top speed that comes to mind, while generally for Americans it is
acceleration. Of course this has to do with speed limits I suppose, and
maybe motorsports, but even for me when someone talks about how fast a car
is I immediately think of acceleration 0-60 or 0-100, rather than *top*
speed.

"Ramone Cila" > haute in die Tasten:

> An interesting thing (at least to me anyway :^) came to mind while
> reading this. It seems that for Europeans, when speaking about a
> "fast" car...it is top speed that comes to mind, while generally for
> Americans it is acceleration. Of course this has to do with speed
> limits I suppose, and maybe motorsports, but even for me when someone
> talks about how fast a car is I immediately think of acceleration 0-60
> or 0-100, rather than *top* speed.
>

Maybe it has to do with the speed limit. Drag racing for example is a true
american sports, which does not have many fans in Germany, while we have 24
hours endurance races (where BMW recently won a class prize with a close-
to-stock BMW 320d).

Frank

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Frank Kemper wrote:

> E.R. > haute in die Tasten:
>
>> I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain
>> German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :}
>>
>
> Exactly. The german manufacturers BMW, Mercedes and VW Group agreed
> upon making cars not faster than 155 mph. Maybe also other
> manufacturers took part, but they currently do not sell such fast
> cars in Germany. The reason for that was avoiding a state law (which
> would probably have limited the cars at a lower level) and avoiding a
> reckless speed race.

The story we got over here was that such an "arms race" would lead to a
political backlash from the car-hating Green Party, resulting in actual laws
that would be even more restrictive. So the carmakers agreed on the 155 MPH
limit.

They also wanted to avoid the need for use of
> expensive and uncomfortable high performance tires.

A serious concern, with safety also. How can the safety of such high speed
tires be assured over time? Tire technology wasn't as advanced then either.

> When the agreeent
> was imposed some years ago, it was not regarded likely that the
> manufacturers would make sedans with 500 HP;-)

No kidding. I remember when car magazines featuring 500 HP Ruf-modified
Porsches, which seemed incredibly exotic at the time. Now such cars seem
commonplace.

> Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this
> agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits
> only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the
> Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher
> speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with
> 175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license).

Ah, you Germans are so orderly (which is probably why you can have roads with no
speed limits). Over here, any idiot can buy such things -- and they do.

> IMHO the
> marketing problem for the company is to sell the top of the line
> cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of the line.

Americans are not so logical. They want the "bestest" one, no matter the cost.
It's all about the bling, baby! Besides, it's only $50 more per month!

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" > haute in die Tasten:

> The story we got over here was that such an "arms race" would lead to
> a political backlash from the car-hating Green Party, resulting in
> actual laws that would be even more restrictive. So the carmakers
> agreed on the 155 MPH limit.
>

Well, the car-hating Green Party was not member of the government, when the
agreement was imposed, and even today their influence is way too small to
bring us a general speed limit, even if they liked to;-)

Frank

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"Matt O'Toole" > haute in die Tasten:

> Ah, you Germans are so orderly (which is probably why you can have
> roads with no speed limits). Over here, any idiot can buy such
> things -- and they do.
>

Over here, too. There are lots of BMW tuners who do not limit their cars. Alpina has
just introduced their brad new Alpina B5 with a five litre supercharged V8 and 500 HP.
It is about as expensive as a new M5, features about the same acceleration and runs at
least 30 miles faster - with an ordinary torque converter autobox. Currently Alpina is
considering limiting the beast at 300 km/h (approx 186 mph) due to safety reasons.

And I am pretty sure that there are many companies, which legally remove the speed
limiter for you (but I do not know what the insurance companies think about that).

I think the decision of BMW to sell the 280 kph CSL only to certified race drivers was
some sort of marketing hype: They wanted to demonstrate that the M3 CSL is a street
legal race car. It was no decision enforced by law.

Frank

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Seth Brundle wrote:
> I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade.
> It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2.

I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose on
that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV

Jeff

>
> BMW has put me in such a difficult position with their pricing, body
> design, and iDrive.
>
> The first time I saw a 2005 545i I was like 'YUCK!!!'. I mean I really
> wanted to like it but I just could not as hard as I tried. It truly
> looks terrible to me, my girlfriend had the exact same reaction.
>
> Meanwhile, the A6 is a very pedestrian Audi design - better in that it
> doesnt bother me.
>
> The Audi is limited to 130 MPH and although thats unfortunate, I think
> I've only exceeded that once in the 540i anyway, and just briefly. The
> 540i is slightly faster in acceleration thanks to the torque if not
> the HP.
>
> I know I'll like driving the BMW more, thats what got me the 540i.
> I've driven Audis - they are 'smooth' - real smooth, but Im not
> looking for smooth, I like 'fun'.
>
> Anyways - opinions?

--
---

"Every time I hear the news
That old feeling comes back on;
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the Big Fool says to push on."

- Pete Seeger, 1967
---

"Jeff Mayner" > wrote in message
...
> Seth Brundle wrote:
> > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade.
> > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2.
>
> I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose
on
> that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV

I have a 545 and although I wasn't completely enamored with it's looks it
doesn't seem to matter to me anymore. I like the drive and performance and I
love the spartan interior. I don't really dislike the new nose of the A6,
but if one does, but loves everything else about the car, I doubt the nose
will be much of an issue a few months down the road.

I just don't get excited about looks. Good or bad, they inevitably become
unimportant if the car satisfies (or dissatisfies) in what I consider to be
the more important areas.

>I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose on
>that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV

Have you seen it in person? I saw a loaded V6 at the dealer and I actually like
it, MUCH better than the pictures made it seem.
Steve Grauman