Accord brake questions

On 19 Oct 2004 11:43:27 GMT, (MWhite4981) wrote:

>I have an 03 Accord Coupe. It's time for brake pads. The rotors have a little
>run out. Is it better to turn the rotors or replace them?

Never turn Honda rotors. If they are really bad, replace them.
Usually they don't need turning or replacing when greedy dealers claim
they do. Are you experiencing pedal pulsation? Unreliable braking?

We turn Honda rotors all the time, never had problems with them, (now
Taurus, that's another story) As long as you follow the specs to the
machine to limits, your OK. Granted if you don't have pulsation, you can
pass on that part; but if I have time I prefer to do a light cut to prevent
brake noise and allow the pads to seat better.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Auto Technician



"John Ings" > wrote in message
...
> On 19 Oct 2004 11:43:27 GMT, (MWhite4981) wrote:
>
>>I have an 03 Accord Coupe. It's time for brake pads. The rotors have a
>>little
>>run out. Is it better to turn the rotors or replace them?
>
> Never turn Honda rotors. If they are really bad, replace them.
> Usually they don't need turning or replacing when greedy dealers claim
> they do. Are you experiencing pedal pulsation? Unreliable braking?
>
>

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:22:06 GMT, "Steve" >
wrote:

>We turn Honda rotors all the time, never had problems with them, (now
>Taurus, that's another story) As long as you follow the specs to the
>machine to limits, your OK. Granted if you don't have pulsation, you can
>pass on that part; but if I have time I prefer to do a light cut to prevent
>brake noise and allow the pads to seat better.

And bring the customer back for another brake job sooner.

How so?
we don't do brake jobs until something is wrong.
Leaks, pulsation, uneven wear or worn out. Your suggesting he spend money to
replace a part that the federal government says is still good. I say (from
much experience) that there is still life left in the rotors. An average
rotor can wear out 3 sets of pads before needing to be replaced even with
turning. Volvos and Audis and some newer cars use such a soft metal that by
the time you wear out one set of pads the rotors are at or past minimum
specs.
If there is no pulsation, turning is an option, however one light cut on the
rotor can prevent brakes from squealing. Sometimes I use a scuff pad and
remove the glaze with it. Some Honda's have pressed on rotors and we charge
extra if we need to take them off. When you do this for a living we don't
want the customer to come back a week later for a brake noise, for then I
have to rework the brakes and now turn them and get no money for it. I don't
get paid by the hour, I get paid by each job, so there is no benefit in
doing it twice.
A local tire shop will not do your brakes unless you put new calipers on it.
I don't believe in doing what isn't necessary, but I believe in doing the
job right the first time.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Auto Technician







"John Ings" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:22:06 GMT, "Steve" >
> wrote:
>
>>We turn Honda rotors all the time, never had problems with them, (now
>>Taurus, that's another story) As long as you follow the specs to the
>>machine to limits, your OK. Granted if you don't have pulsation, you can
>>pass on that part; but if I have time I prefer to do a light cut to
>>prevent
>>brake noise and allow the pads to seat better.
>
> And bring the customer back for another brake job sooner.
>
>
>

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:17:51 GMT, "Steve" >
wrote:

>>>We turn Honda rotors all the time, never had problems with them, (now
>>>Taurus, that's another story) As long as you follow the specs to the
>>>machine to limits, your OK. Granted if you don't have pulsation, you can
>>>pass on that part; but if I have time I prefer to do a light cut to prevent
>>>brake noise and allow the pads to seat better.

>>And bring the customer back for another brake job sooner.

>How so?

Every thou you take off those rotors is thousands of miles of rotor
wear the customer doesn't benefit from.

>we don't do brake jobs until something is wrong.

Never replace worn out pads for that reason alone?

>Leaks, pulsation, uneven wear or worn out. Your suggesting he spend money to
>replace a part that the federal government says is still good.

No I'm suggesting that most of the time the rotor doesn't need
turning, and the benefits of a little less noise and faster seating of
the new pads isn't worth the loss of milage.

>I say (from
>much experience) that there is still life left in the rotors. An average
>rotor can wear out 3 sets of pads before needing to be replaced even with
>turning.

And probably 5 without turning.

>Volvos and Audis and some newer cars use such a soft metal that by
>the time you wear out one set of pads the rotors are at or past minimum
>specs.
>If there is no pulsation, turning is an option, however one light cut on the
>rotor can prevent brakes from squealing.

I'd rather have the brakes squeal a bit for a few hundred miles and
not need another brake job so soon. I view all this rotor turning
business as a cash cow and little more.

>Sometimes I use a scuff pad and
>remove the glaze with it. Some Honda's have pressed on rotors and we charge
>extra if we need to take them off. When you do this for a living we don't
>want the customer to come back a week later for a brake noise,

Yeah, cause you'd have to fix that for free. Whereas if he's back in
six months for new rotors, that's profitable!

John Ings wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:17:51 GMT, "Steve" >
> wrote:
>
> >>>We turn Honda rotors all the time, never had problems with them, (now
> >>>Taurus, that's another story) As long as you follow the specs to the
> >>>machine to limits, your OK. Granted if you don't have pulsation, you can
> >>>pass on that part; but if I have time I prefer to do a light cut to prevent
> >>>brake noise and allow the pads to seat better.
>
> >>And bring the customer back for another brake job sooner.
>
> >How so?
>
> Every thou you take off those rotors is thousands of miles of rotor
> wear the customer doesn't benefit from.
>
> >we don't do brake jobs until something is wrong.
>
> Never replace worn out pads for that reason alone?
>
> >Leaks, pulsation, uneven wear or worn out. Your suggesting he spend money to
> >replace a part that the federal government says is still good.
>
> No I'm suggesting that most of the time the rotor doesn't need
> turning, and the benefits of a little less noise and faster seating of
> the new pads isn't worth the loss of milage.
>
> >I say (from
> >much experience) that there is still life left in the rotors. An average
> >rotor can wear out 3 sets of pads before needing to be replaced even with
> >turning.
>
> And probably 5 without turning.
>
> >Volvos and Audis and some newer cars use such a soft metal that by
> >the time you wear out one set of pads the rotors are at or past minimum
> >specs.
> >If there is no pulsation, turning is an option, however one light cut on the
> >rotor can prevent brakes from squealing.
>
> I'd rather have the brakes squeal a bit for a few hundred miles and
> not need another brake job so soon. I view all this rotor turning
> business as a cash cow and little more.
>
> >Sometimes I use a scuff pad and
> >remove the glaze with it. Some Honda's have pressed on rotors and we charge
> >extra if we need to take them off. When you do this for a living we don't
> >want the customer to come back a week later for a brake noise,
>
> Yeah, cause you'd have to fix that for free. Whereas if he's back in
> six months for new rotors, that's profitable!



Something you're missing in this ****ing contest is the fact of the
litigant society that we live in. Better to be safe and do the "light
cut" and have a smooth seating process than have an unhappy customer
complaining of noise.

But, I do agree that many times, resurfacing is not needed and is a
decision that should be left to a well informed customer (which is a
rarity). I also prefer to overhaul engines without re-honing cylinder
wall for exactly the same reason of "stolen" miles of wear down the road...



--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:46:56 GMT, Grumpy au Contraire
> wrote:

>Something you're missing in this ****ing contest is the fact of the
>litigant society that we live in. Better to be safe and do the "light
>cut" and have a smooth seating process than have an unhappy customer
>complaining of noise.

Well yes, I've gotta concede that point. An analogy I remember from my
own experience in TV repair is my boss insisting I set the horizontal
and vertical sweep of cusomers sets way wider than they should have
been according to the book. "If they see a tiny little bit of black at
the edges after the vertical or horizontal drivers age a bit" he would
tell me, "they'll be back screaming because they'll think they're
missing something!" So they ended up missing about 15 to 20% of the
picture out past the edges of the screen on all sides instead!

>But, I do agree that many times, resurfacing is not needed and is a
>decision that should be left to a well informed customer (which is a
>rarity). I also prefer to overhaul engines without re-honing cylinder
>wall for exactly the same reason of "stolen" miles of wear down the road...

Are the days of the old ridge-reamer long gone?

John Ings wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:46:56 GMT, Grumpy au Contraire
> > wrote:
>
> >Something you're missing in this ****ing contest is the fact of the
> >litigant society that we live in. Better to be safe and do the "light
> >cut" and have a smooth seating process than have an unhappy customer
> >complaining of noise.
>
> Well yes, I've gotta concede that point. An analogy I remember from my
> own experience in TV repair is my boss insisting I set the horizontal
> and vertical sweep of cusomers sets way wider than they should have
> been according to the book. "If they see a tiny little bit of black at
> the edges after the vertical or horizontal drivers age a bit" he would
> tell me, "they'll be back screaming because they'll think they're
> missing something!" So they ended up missing about 15 to 20% of the
> picture out past the edges of the screen on all sides instead!
>
> >But, I do agree that many times, resurfacing is not needed and is a
> >decision that should be left to a well informed customer (which is a
> >rarity). I also prefer to overhaul engines without re-honing cylinder
> >wall for exactly the same reason of "stolen" miles of wear down the road...
>
> Are the days of the old ridge-reamer long gone?


Nope... I always remove the ridge...


--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4

It's the same in the auto industry. The brakes can be metal to metal when it
comes in and one squeak will have the customer back within a week. YOU may
not mind a squeak, but the average consumer will come flying back for the
slightest noise. I only get about 3/4 an hour pay for brakes. If I don't
cover my butt and do everything possible to ensure they don't come back,
then my 8 dollars take-home for the brakes now becomes 4 dollars along with
the lost time that I'm not producing another completed job.
I was once concerned about turning rotors until I measured how much came off
during each cut, it wasn't as drastic as I thought. My job is to make them
as perfect as possible, as quick as possible. It is also amazing how rotors
can wear even though there is no pulsation. Sometimes putting new pads on a
car with no pulsation will result in a car with pulsation. Some cars can
take a bit of runout and provide no pulsation, others may have just a wee
bit or runout and give nice pulsation.





"John Ings" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:46:56 GMT, Grumpy au Contraire
> > wrote:
>
>>Something you're missing in this ****ing contest is the fact of the
>>litigant society that we live in. Better to be safe and do the "light
>>cut" and have a smooth seating process than have an unhappy customer
>>complaining of noise.
>
> Well yes, I've gotta concede that point. An analogy I remember from my
> own experience in TV repair is my boss insisting I set the horizontal
> and vertical sweep of cusomers sets way wider than they should have
> been according to the book. "If they see a tiny little bit of black at
> the edges after the vertical or horizontal drivers age a bit" he would
> tell me, "they'll be back screaming because they'll think they're
> missing something!" So they ended up missing about 15 to 20% of the
> picture out past the edges of the screen on all sides instead!
>
>>But, I do agree that many times, resurfacing is not needed and is a
>>decision that should be left to a well informed customer (which is a
>>rarity). I also prefer to overhaul engines without re-honing cylinder
>>wall for exactly the same reason of "stolen" miles of wear down the
>>road...
>
> Are the days of the old ridge-reamer long gone?
>
>
>

How do you ensure the rings are going to seat? I never thought about the
pro's and cons of cylinder wear, I just want to be sure the car don't smoke
when I'm done. As hard as a Honda block is, I don't think I would be too
concerned about wearing out a cylinder wall. Just put new rings in the
daughters 86, no ridge with 200K on it; amazing. The only evidence of wear
was a light groove at the top where the top ring stopped the upward travel
and started down.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Auto Technician


>
> But, I do agree that many times, resurfacing is not needed and is a
> decision that should be left to a well informed customer (which is a
> rarity). I also prefer to overhaul engines without re-honing cylinder
> wall for exactly the same reason of "stolen" miles of wear down the
> road...
>
>