Off Camber 4 wheelin Help

Last week went wheelin in the sierra's on a trail that looked like it
hadn't been used in many a year. No tire tracks and a crap load of
sage brush growing where there should have been dirt.

I had the whole family in the TJ. The grade was going down a hill
perhaps 20 degree but also with a 15 degree off camber angle on the
shelf/side of a mountain perhaps 200 feet up, this section is maybe
only 40 foot long. The ground was fine graded dust but with alot of
small rock and some larger rock say 4" to 6" diameter.

I was able to go down down the grade no problem (heck any 4 wheel
vehicle could have, or even high clearance 2wd.), upon coming back up
(the road ended into a foot trail, so I turned around), I was unable
to make this grade without sliding slowly but surely to the cliff
side. It was sliding so much, that I made the kids and wife get out
in case I moved off the shelf and rolled the jeep to my death.

Bear in mind this trail was just perhaps 2 foot wider than my TJ, so
any mistake was ass pucker time and you go rolling down a mountain.

Everytime I tried to move forward (I'm talking a foot of movement or
less), it would slide closer and closer to the side of falling off. I
backed up a few times, and was able to place it more squarely in the
center of the track. Everytime I tried to engage forward the rear
would slide down and the front would ride up. Any type of steering
adjustment to ride the off camber higher was nearly impossible, and
each try pushed more closer to the edge.

I tried my rear lockers as well, and I think that made it worse
because it would dig in. I was finally able to make it past this
small piece of trail after a 8 tries or so.

Does anyone have any pointers on this scenario? Is that just the way
it is? Thank you for your help!

check your email

K.


"nawt2smart" > wrote in message
...
Last week went wheelin in the sierra's on a trail that looked like it
hadn't been used in many a year. No tire tracks and a crap load of
sage brush growing where there should have been dirt.

I had the whole family in the TJ. The grade was going down a hill
perhaps 20 degree but also with a 15 degree off camber angle on the
shelf/side of a mountain perhaps 200 feet up, this section is maybe
only 40 foot long. The ground was fine graded dust but with alot of
small rock and some larger rock say 4" to 6" diameter.

I was able to go down down the grade no problem (heck any 4 wheel
vehicle could have, or even high clearance 2wd.), upon coming back up
(the road ended into a foot trail, so I turned around), I was unable
to make this grade without sliding slowly but surely to the cliff
side. It was sliding so much, that I made the kids and wife get out
in case I moved off the shelf and rolled the jeep to my death.

Bear in mind this trail was just perhaps 2 foot wider than my TJ, so
any mistake was ass pucker time and you go rolling down a mountain.

Everytime I tried to move forward (I'm talking a foot of movement or
less), it would slide closer and closer to the side of falling off. I
backed up a few times, and was able to place it more squarely in the
center of the track. Everytime I tried to engage forward the rear
would slide down and the front would ride up. Any type of steering
adjustment to ride the off camber higher was nearly impossible, and
each try pushed more closer to the edge.

I tried my rear lockers as well, and I think that made it worse
because it would dig in. I was finally able to make it past this
small piece of trail after a 8 tries or so.

Does anyone have any pointers on this scenario? Is that just the way
it is? Thank you for your help!

email rejected.. that's not gonna work

"Kate" > wrote in message
...
check your email

K.


"nawt2smart" > wrote in message
...
Last week went wheelin in the sierra's on a trail that looked like it
hadn't been used in many a year. No tire tracks and a crap load of
sage brush growing where there should have been dirt.

I had the whole family in the TJ. The grade was going down a hill
perhaps 20 degree but also with a 15 degree off camber angle on the
shelf/side of a mountain perhaps 200 feet up, this section is maybe
only 40 foot long. The ground was fine graded dust but with alot of
small rock and some larger rock say 4" to 6" diameter.

I was able to go down down the grade no problem (heck any 4 wheel
vehicle could have, or even high clearance 2wd.), upon coming back up
(the road ended into a foot trail, so I turned around), I was unable
to make this grade without sliding slowly but surely to the cliff
side. It was sliding so much, that I made the kids and wife get out
in case I moved off the shelf and rolled the jeep to my death.

Bear in mind this trail was just perhaps 2 foot wider than my TJ, so
any mistake was ass pucker time and you go rolling down a mountain.

Everytime I tried to move forward (I'm talking a foot of movement or
less), it would slide closer and closer to the side of falling off. I
backed up a few times, and was able to place it more squarely in the
center of the track. Everytime I tried to engage forward the rear
would slide down and the front would ride up. Any type of steering
adjustment to ride the off camber higher was nearly impossible, and
each try pushed more closer to the edge.

I tried my rear lockers as well, and I think that made it worse
because it would dig in. I was finally able to make it past this
small piece of trail after a 8 tries or so.

Does anyone have any pointers on this scenario? Is that just the way
it is? Thank you for your help!

Lockers are 'not' fondly called 'Low Side Finders' and can make trails
like that totally impassable. Do yours totally release to an open
differential?

Up here in Canada in the winter, the folks with lockers cannot run on a
lot of the trails because they are just 'slightly' off camber. We get
tired of dragging them out of the ditches fast....

I got stuck on the side of a mountain the same way as you and also had
to let the family out for fear of death. I was in a 2 WD pickup with a
posi in the back that locked at the blink of an eye or twitch of the gas
pedal. I didn't have enough power or torque converter grab to go
forward at an idle in the automatic so had to give it gas. Any gas and
the rear wheels spun and sideways we went. Then I had to back down......

That experience was one of the big reasons my wife decided we needed a
real 4x4 so she bought the CJ7 with it's open diffs and 4x4.

The only way I can think of to overcome that slick off camber ball
bearing rock is to use 4 low 1st gear and let it idle along.

A TJ 'will' hold an idle up the side of a 45+ deg ravine wall with
absolutely no input on the gas pedal or spinning of the tires. The
computer keeps it going. I have photos of folks with TJ's 'walking'
them up the sand pit wall and have ridden with them up the ravine wall
using no gas pedal. I mean literally they are outside walking and
steering through the window. Now if you have an automatic, all bets are
off.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

nawt2smart wrote:
> Last week went wheelin in the sierra's on a trail that looked like it
> hadn't been used in many a year. No tire tracks and a crap load of
> sage brush growing where there should have been dirt.
>
> I had the whole family in the TJ. The grade was going down a hill
> perhaps 20 degree but also with a 15 degree off camber angle on the
> shelf/side of a mountain perhaps 200 feet up, this section is maybe
> only 40 foot long. The ground was fine graded dust but with alot of
> small rock and some larger rock say 4" to 6" diameter.
>
> I was able to go down down the grade no problem (heck any 4 wheel
> vehicle could have, or even high clearance 2wd.), upon coming back up
> (the road ended into a foot trail, so I turned around), I was unable
> to make this grade without sliding slowly but surely to the cliff
> side. It was sliding so much, that I made the kids and wife get out
> in case I moved off the shelf and rolled the jeep to my death.
>
> Bear in mind this trail was just perhaps 2 foot wider than my TJ, so
> any mistake was ass pucker time and you go rolling down a mountain.
>
> Everytime I tried to move forward (I'm talking a foot of movement or
> less), it would slide closer and closer to the side of falling off. I
> backed up a few times, and was able to place it more squarely in the
> center of the track. Everytime I tried to engage forward the rear
> would slide down and the front would ride up. Any type of steering
> adjustment to ride the off camber higher was nearly impossible, and
> each try pushed more closer to the edge.
>
> I tried my rear lockers as well, and I think that made it worse
> because it would dig in. I was finally able to make it past this
> small piece of trail after a 8 tries or so.
>
> Does anyone have any pointers on this scenario? Is that just the way
> it is? Thank you for your help!
>

Four low "L" with an automatic should be all right. Auto Jeeps are
typically geared higher but the torque converter gives you some slack. You
may have to sit in it and give it some gas where it would have idled up the
hill in four low first gear standard shift. It shouldn't shift up at very
low speeds like, say 5 mph. If it does then there are shift kits to prevent
this. I prefer a manual shift myself. The main purpose of automatic
transmissions is to convert mechanical energy into heat, but many people
find them useful, even off road.

I am curious as to what "nawt2smart" means by "engage forward". Does he
have front lockers independently controlled from the driver's seat? Front
wheels locked together basically negates the effect of steering. Rear
lockers too but not so bad.

Earle

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
ng.com...
> Lockers are 'not' fondly called 'Low Side Finders' and can make trails
> like that totally impassable. Do yours totally release to an open
> differential?
>
> Up here in Canada in the winter, the folks with lockers cannot run on a
> lot of the trails because they are just 'slightly' off camber. We get
> tired of dragging them out of the ditches fast....
>
> I got stuck on the side of a mountain the same way as you and also had
> to let the family out for fear of death. I was in a 2 WD pickup with a
> posi in the back that locked at the blink of an eye or twitch of the gas
> pedal. I didn't have enough power or torque converter grab to go
> forward at an idle in the automatic so had to give it gas. Any gas and
> the rear wheels spun and sideways we went. Then I had to back down......
>
> That experience was one of the big reasons my wife decided we needed a
> real 4x4 so she bought the CJ7 with it's open diffs and 4x4.
>
> The only way I can think of to overcome that slick off camber ball
> bearing rock is to use 4 low 1st gear and let it idle along.
>
> A TJ 'will' hold an idle up the side of a 45+ deg ravine wall with
> absolutely no input on the gas pedal or spinning of the tires. The
> computer keeps it going. I have photos of folks with TJ's 'walking'
> them up the sand pit wall and have ridden with them up the ravine wall
> using no gas pedal. I mean literally they are outside walking and
> steering through the window. Now if you have an automatic, all bets are
> off.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
>
> nawt2smart wrote:
>> Last week went wheelin in the sierra's on a trail that looked like it
>> hadn't been used in many a year. No tire tracks and a crap load of
>> sage brush growing where there should have been dirt.
>>
>> I had the whole family in the TJ. The grade was going down a hill
>> perhaps 20 degree but also with a 15 degree off camber angle on the
>> shelf/side of a mountain perhaps 200 feet up, this section is maybe
>> only 40 foot long. The ground was fine graded dust but with alot of
>> small rock and some larger rock say 4" to 6" diameter.
>>
>> I was able to go down down the grade no problem (heck any 4 wheel
>> vehicle could have, or even high clearance 2wd.), upon coming back up
>> (the road ended into a foot trail, so I turned around), I was unable
>> to make this grade without sliding slowly but surely to the cliff
>> side. It was sliding so much, that I made the kids and wife get out
>> in case I moved off the shelf and rolled the jeep to my death.
>>
>> Bear in mind this trail was just perhaps 2 foot wider than my TJ, so
>> any mistake was ass pucker time and you go rolling down a mountain.
>>
>> Everytime I tried to move forward (I'm talking a foot of movement or
>> less), it would slide closer and closer to the side of falling off. I
>> backed up a few times, and was able to place it more squarely in the
>> center of the track. Everytime I tried to engage forward the rear
>> would slide down and the front would ride up. Any type of steering
>> adjustment to ride the off camber higher was nearly impossible, and
>> each try pushed more closer to the edge.
>>
>> I tried my rear lockers as well, and I think that made it worse
>> because it would dig in. I was finally able to make it past this
>> small piece of trail after a 8 tries or so.
>>
>> Does anyone have any pointers on this scenario? Is that just the way
>> it is? Thank you for your help!
>>


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

nawt2smart wrote:
> Last week went wheelin in the sierra's on a trail that looked like it
> hadn't been used in many a year. No tire tracks and a crap load of
> sage brush growing where there should have been dirt.
>
> I had the whole family in the TJ. The grade was going down a hill
> perhaps 20 degree but also with a 15 degree off camber angle on the
> shelf/side of a mountain perhaps 200 feet up, this section is maybe
> only 40 foot long. The ground was fine graded dust but with alot of
> small rock and some larger rock say 4" to 6" diameter.
>
> I was able to go down down the grade no problem (heck any 4 wheel
> vehicle could have, or even high clearance 2wd.), upon coming back up
> (the road ended into a foot trail, so I turned around), I was unable
> to make this grade without sliding slowly but surely to the cliff
> side. It was sliding so much, that I made the kids and wife get out
> in case I moved off the shelf and rolled the jeep to my death.
>
> Bear in mind this trail was just perhaps 2 foot wider than my TJ, so
> any mistake was ass pucker time and you go rolling down a mountain.
>
> Everytime I tried to move forward (I'm talking a foot of movement or
> less), it would slide closer and closer to the side of falling off. I
> backed up a few times, and was able to place it more squarely in the
> center of the track. Everytime I tried to engage forward the rear
> would slide down and the front would ride up. Any type of steering
> adjustment to ride the off camber higher was nearly impossible, and
> each try pushed more closer to the edge.
>
> I tried my rear lockers as well, and I think that made it worse
> because it would dig in. I was finally able to make it past this
> small piece of trail after a 8 tries or so.
>
> Does anyone have any pointers on this scenario? Is that just the way
> it is? Thank you for your help!
>

Ummm, so how did you get out of there?