clutch / transmission question

Chris,

What happens if you double clutch when shifting?

Try double clutching on the upshift and downshift while matching revs,
which, requires a blip of the throttle on the downshift and no blip on
the upshift. Done correctly, this should minimize the need for the
synchros. If this helps with the grinding from second to third, I
would suspect the synchros to be worn.

You did not mention what viscosity of Redline you are using. I was
getting the traditional hard to shift from first to second when cold.
I first tried using the MTL, but thought it was to thin with the
transmission warmed up. The MT-90 feels better in my 140,000 mile ’92.

G. Lee

Ahhhh, I knew I liked you! Plus you know allot about these little half-cars!

Chris
99BBB

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>I don't have time or the patience to read/scroll to the bottom of lengthy
>chains. Nor do I get into the top/bottom fights!
>
> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Chuck, with that hair, I could never confuse you with Bruce .......
>> geeesh! Actually Chuck, you and I appear to be two of the oft dreaded
>> 'top-posters'! Bruce actually took the time (and I'm sure the newsgroup
>> politically correct crowd believe; the courtesy, to go all the way to the
>> bottom of our previous conversation and post his comment.
>>
>> I do greatly appreciate your input, you (and many others, including Bruce
>> probably) have a better understanding of clutch / tranny than this lowly
>> top poster does. Then again, since their are only about 4 posters here
>> these days and two of us top post............... this may be our chance
>> Chuck ........... let's take over the world!
>>
>> Later,
>> Chris
>> 99BBB
>>
>> "Chuck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I'm not Bruce!
>>>
>>> Logic says (to me anyway) that clutch adjustment should be considered if
>>> there is a noticable problem in first gear.
>>> (Flat level surface, such as a nice smooth parking lot)
>>> With first gear selected, and the engine at idle, slowly release the
>>> clutch until you feel it just start to engage. The engine RPM may drop
>>> just slightly at this point.
>>> There should have been a fair amount of clutch pedal travel before the
>>> clutch started to engage. Also, with the clutch pedal pressed almost to
>>> the floor, close to but not at it's travel limit, with the first gear
>>> selected, there should be no tendancy for the car to move foreward when
>>> the engine is revved with the brakes off.
>>>
>>> If you have the service manual there are some distances specified. Many
>>> have found that the distances in the manual are not optimum with
>>> aftermarket clutches and pressure plates.
>>>
>>> I'm afraid that your third gear problem is a tranny related problem, not
>>> a clutch problem. (unfortunately)
>>>
>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Bruce, Do you think my problem (as I described it in the OP could be an
>>>> adjustment issue? It only happens going into 3rd and only if I'm
>>>> rushing the shift (only 90% of the time ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Chris
>>>> 99BBB
>>>>
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> On Apr 21, 10:32 pm, "Chuck" > wrote:
>>>>> Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of
>>>>> ~80-100.
>>>>> A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap
>>>>> either.
>>>>> The last one I replaced cost me about $600 several years ago, and that
>>>>> included
>>>>> a heavy labor discount.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple
>>>>> > years
>>>>> > old so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any
>>>>> > leakage.
>>>>> > I had sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to
>>>>> > the trip
>>>>> > so, I was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop
>>>>> > in
>>>>> > that level but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having
>>>>> > leaked is miniscule.
>>>>>
>>>>> > So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I
>>>>> > need
>>>>> > an easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over
>>>>> > $1000
>>>>> > to do the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the
>>>>> > going rate
>>>>> > at stealerships these days?
>>>>>
>>>>> > Thanks again guys,
>>>>> > Chris
>>>>> > 99BBB
>>>>>
>>>>> > "Chuck" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>> >> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
>>>>> >> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem,
>>>>> >> however.
>>>>> >> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal
>>>>> >> slider
>>>>> >> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel
>>>>> >> syncros,
>>>>> >> and a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is
>>>>> >> engaged.
>>>>> >> When you tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the
>>>>> >> syncro
>>>>> >> assembly for both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> syncro teeth. A couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> output shaft and remove large nuts.
>>>>>
>>>>> >> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost
>>>>> >> effective
>>>>> >> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>>>>>
>>>>> >> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>> >>> In article >,
>>>>> >>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>> is my
>>>>> >>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>>>>>
>>>>> >>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
>>>>> >>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first
>>>>> >>> symptom of a
>>>>> >>> leaky slave.
>>>>>
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> Lanny Chambers
>>>>> >>> St. Louis, MO
>>>>> >>> '94C- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> Chris,
>>>> Yes, there is an adjustment for the clutch. You can find it in the
>>>> shop manual, or I think there is a section in "miata.net" garage. I
>>>> had to adjust the clutch on my 2003 when I replaced it.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Bing '03 LS
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Well, double clutching probably takes about the same amount of time as
taking a breath in the middle of the 2nd to 3rd shift (and that avoids the
grind) so, I'm pretty sure it would not grind but I'm not sure that would
tell me anything. Good thought though.

I'm with you on the tranny fluid though, I put the MTL in the tranny and the
MT-90 in the diff (or the other way around, can't remember). I'd have to
look up the recpt, that would tell me as there would be quan 2 on the tranny
and quan 1 on the diff. Thing is, it's been awhile so, I should probably do
the change out just to be sure and see what happens.

I think I asked but I don't remember anyone answering; would it be necessary
/ likely that they changed tranny fluid when they did the clutch (see, I
told you I don't know much about this part of my car)?

Thanks again guys,
Chris
99BBB

> wrote in message
...
Chris,

What happens if you double clutch when shifting?

Try double clutching on the upshift and downshift while matching revs,
which, requires a blip of the throttle on the downshift and no blip on
the upshift. Done correctly, this should minimize the need for the
synchros. If this helps with the grinding from second to third, I
would suspect the synchros to be worn.

You did not mention what viscosity of Redline you are using. I was
getting the traditional hard to shift from first to second when cold.
I first tried using the MTL, but thought it was to thin with the
transmission warmed up. The MT-90 feels better in my 140,000 mile ’92.

G. Lee

I believe the specs call for 75w90 gear oil in the dif.

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_g...p?categoryID=6

Changing the transmission fluid is not required during a clutch
change.

G. Lee

wrote:

> Changing the transmission fluid is not required during a clutch
> change.
>
> G. Lee

Agreed, the tranny is, or at least should be, a sealed unit for the
containment of the fluid.
Unless there is a leak somewhere, the fluid is only coming out if you
remove a plug.

Chris, if a new/used/rebuilt tranny ends up being your answer, don't pay
them too much to put one in.
When that is all that is being replaced, it is really not a hard job.

Unbolt it front and rear, slide it out, put the new one in. Hook the
driveshaft back up and drive it off after installing the shifter.

We could knock it out in an afternoon, and I have a 5-speed transmission
here that would fix the problem if it is indeed transmission-related.

Pat

Gottcha!

Chris
99BBB

> wrote in message
...
>I believe the specs call for 75w90 gear oil in the dif.
>
> http://www.redlineoil.com/products_g...p?categoryID=6
>
> Changing the transmission fluid is not required during a clutch
> change.
>
> G. Lee
>
>

Pat, it doesn't sound like I'm going to be paying "them" anything. It sounds
like I need to know what your favorite beer is and we'll have to test it out
on LCR after we fight it for a few hours ;-)

I think I'm going to do the fluid change and see if I'm fortunate enough to
have it resolved by that (which I'm doubtful about). Then I'll move on to
other options if / when it get annoying enough.

Later,
Chris
99BBB


"pws" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> Changing the transmission fluid is not required during a clutch
>> change.
>>
>> G. Lee
>
> Agreed, the tranny is, or at least should be, a sealed unit for the
> containment of the fluid.
> Unless there is a leak somewhere, the fluid is only coming out if you
> remove a plug.
>
> Chris, if a new/used/rebuilt tranny ends up being your answer, don't pay
> them too much to put one in.
> When that is all that is being replaced, it is really not a hard job.
>
> Unbolt it front and rear, slide it out, put the new one in. Hook the
> driveshaft back up and drive it off after installing the shifter.
>
> We could knock it out in an afternoon, and I have a 5-speed transmission
> here that would fix the problem if it is indeed transmission-related.
>
> Pat
>
>
>

> wrote in message
...
>I believe the specs call for 75w90 gear oil in the dif.
>
> http://www.redlineoil.com/products_g...p?categoryID=6
>
> Changing the transmission fluid is not required during a clutch
> change.
>
> G. Lee

Unless you have a plug for the driveshaft hole, removing the trans while it
is full of lube will make a mess. It's not required to drain it, but I would
recommend it.

I doubt that this will be of any help in "fixing" the third gear grind--
But, one never knows.
Remove the various stuff needed to get to the tranny shifter rubber boots.
One or both may be bad, but that's another issue at this point.
Remove the outer boot far enough to get to the inner boot and the shifter
mounting bolts that go thru the inner boot flange.
Check the shifter mounting bolts to make sure that they are reasonably
tight.
If so, there is a possibility that the plastic donut on the bottom of the
shifter is worn.
So, the next step would be to remove the shifter and check.
And another gotcha-- The shifter and ring may not have been installed
correctly when the clutch was replaced,
if the third gear grinding started soon after the clutch was replaced.

Once in third gear, is there any tendancy to "pop out" of gear if you just
touch the shifter?

As far as lubricant and shifting/grinding.
The wrong lubricant screws up the coefficient of friction that the syncro
"cones" are designed for.
For instance, lubricant intended specifically for limited slip clutch plate
type differentials contains an additive that is intended to reduce or stop
"shudder" caused by "chattering" or repeated quick engagement and release of
the clutch pack. In otherwords, if the lubricant is too slippery, the cones
don't work properly, and grinding can be a result. Double clutching usually
solves the problem.

Chas Hurst wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> I believe the specs call for 75w90 gear oil in the dif.
>>
>> http://www.redlineoil.com/products_g...p?categoryID=6
>>
>> Changing the transmission fluid is not required during a clutch
>> change.
>>
>> G. Lee
>
> Unless you have a plug for the driveshaft hole, removing the trans while it
> is full of lube will make a mess. It's not required to drain it, but I would
> recommend it.

Oh yeah, that driveshaft hole. Forgot about that. The transmissions that
I have removed have all been empty, so that other fluid exit hole was
not coming to mind.

Even if it did not make a mess, the lack of a lift or transmission jack
makes me want to take every pound possible off of the weight of the
transmission before I pull it out and let it drop onto my chest.

The same goes for lifting it up and re-installing it. The 5-speed
transmission is not that heavy, but it is very awkward, (and heavy
enough), if you are unable to stand underneath the car during installation.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Pat