Ford, GM have discussed merger, alliance

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:35:01 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:

>We are already seeing Detroit as we know it. Ford is getting rid of as many
>workers as they can.
>
>GM already did the same thing. Diamler-Chrysler is owned by a German
>company.
>
>All three are in deep doo-doo.
>
>The people who make parts for GM, D-C and Ford are also in deep poop.
>
>Automaking had also changed drastically. The foreign brands already employ
>hundreds of thousands of people directly and indirectly.
>
>With the price of gas so high, the big 2 + D-C also have major problems,
>because so many of their vehicles are trucks and their cars don't make much
>money.
>
>Detroit as we know it had changed already and will change again.


Detriots biggest problem is labor costs. Approx 70% of the price of
build a car at GM is for labor costs, not raw materials with health
insurance along adding 1500 bucks to the average car price. If they
cannot rein this in, they will fail because seeking cheaper part to
ofset high labor costs is resulting on a lower quality product. They
are getting into a big pickle and there is a showdown on the horizon
between Detriot and Labor unions. Either the union will have to give
in or they will go out of bussiness, no middle of the road possible.
This will come to a head in next 3 or 4 years tops.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

"SnoMan" > wrote in message
news
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:35:01 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:
>
>>We are already seeing Detroit as we know it. Ford is getting rid of as
>>many
>>workers as they can.
>>
>>GM already did the same thing. Diamler-Chrysler is owned by a German
>>company.
>>
>>All three are in deep doo-doo.
>>
>>The people who make parts for GM, D-C and Ford are also in deep poop.
>>
>>Automaking had also changed drastically. The foreign brands already employ
>>hundreds of thousands of people directly and indirectly.
>>
>>With the price of gas so high, the big 2 + D-C also have major problems,
>>because so many of their vehicles are trucks and their cars don't make
>>much
>>money.
>>
>>Detroit as we know it had changed already and will change again.
>
>
> Detriots biggest problem is labor costs. Approx 70% of the price of
> build a car at GM is for labor costs, not raw materials with health
> insurance along adding 1500 bucks to the average car price.

That's health care and pension costs.

> If they
> cannot rein this in, they will fail because seeking cheaper part to
> ofset high labor costs is resulting on a lower quality product.

Or overpriced product.

> They
> are getting into a big pickle and there is a showdown on the horizon
> between Detriot and Labor unions. Either the union will have to give
> in or they will go out of bussiness, no middle of the road possible.
> This will come to a head in next 3 or 4 years tops.

There's always bankrupcy court. Ask Northwest Airlines and the other
airlines.

Jeff


> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

The idea is to sell enough cars to turn enough profit not to have to worry
about.
I am curious just how much do you think the average auto worker makes
working for FoMoCo, or General Motors once he/she is tenured. base salary
before over time, remember the assembly line workers are hourly, and I'll
let you in a clue, My wifes fater was 40 years GM, both her grandfathers,
numerous uncles and aunts, and I have a few in my family that have worked
for GM, .so no wild ass guesses or alligations of astronomical wealth
please.

Whitelightning

"Whitelightning" > wrote in message
news:mKGPg.3918$4C1.3865@trnddc03...
> The idea is to sell enough cars to turn enough profit not to have to worry
> about.
> I am curious just how much do you think the average auto worker makes
> working for FoMoCo, or General Motors once he/she is tenured. base salary
> before over time, remember the assembly line workers are hourly, and I'll
> let you in a clue, My wifes fater was 40 years GM, both her grandfathers,
> numerous uncles and aunts, and I have a few in my family that have worked
> for GM, .so no wild ass guesses or alligations of astronomical wealth
> please.

$60k plus a pension with health care after retiring

> Whitelightning
>
>
>

I would venture to guess around $50k Canadian.
"Jeff" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Whitelightning" > wrote in message
> news:mKGPg.3918$4C1.3865@trnddc03...
> > The idea is to sell enough cars to turn enough profit not to have to
worry
> > about.
> > I am curious just how much do you think the average auto worker makes
> > working for FoMoCo, or General Motors once he/she is tenured. base
salary
> > before over time, remember the assembly line workers are hourly, and
I'll
> > let you in a clue, My wifes fater was 40 years GM, both her
grandfathers,
> > numerous uncles and aunts, and I have a few in my family that have
worked
> > for GM, .so no wild ass guesses or alligations of astronomical wealth
> > please.
>
> $60k plus a pension with health care after retiring
>
> > Whitelightning
> >
> >
> >
>
>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:33:42 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:

>
>"SnoMan" > wrote in message
>news
>> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:35:01 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:
>>
>>>We are already seeing Detroit as we know it. Ford is getting rid of as
>>>many
>>>workers as they can.
>>>
>>>GM already did the same thing. Diamler-Chrysler is owned by a German
>>>company.
>>>
>>>All three are in deep doo-doo.
>>>
>>>The people who make parts for GM, D-C and Ford are also in deep poop.
>>>
>>>Automaking had also changed drastically. The foreign brands already employ
>>>hundreds of thousands of people directly and indirectly.
>>>
>>>With the price of gas so high, the big 2 + D-C also have major problems,
>>>because so many of their vehicles are trucks and their cars don't make
>>>much
>>>money.
>>>
>>>Detroit as we know it had changed already and will change again.
>>
>>
>> Detriots biggest problem is labor costs. Approx 70% of the price of
>> build a car at GM is for labor costs, not raw materials with health
>> insurance along adding 1500 bucks to the average car price.
>
>That's health care and pension costs.


No just health care costs alone...

>
>> If they
>> cannot rein this in, they will fail because seeking cheaper part to
>> ofset high labor costs is resulting on a lower quality product.
>
>Or overpriced product.

That will not sell and they will be out of bussiness

>
>> They
>> are getting into a big pickle and there is a showdown on the horizon
>> between Detriot and Labor unions. Either the union will have to give
>> in or they will go out of bussiness, no middle of the road possible.
>> This will come to a head in next 3 or 4 years tops.
>
>There's always bankrupcy court. Ask Northwest Airlines and the other
>airlines.

Yes and they got wage reducitons too. The gravy train ride is over but
labor does not see it that way. The writing has been on the wall for
some time now.

>
>Jeff
>
>
>> -----------------
>> TheSnoMan.com
>
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

I can remember when you could buy either a ford or GM for around 3500 bucks,
both were good trucks, built well and for the right price...then all of a
sudden the workers wanted more money, and the price of the trucks doubled
and what suffered the product. Now your paying 16 to 25 grand for a piece
of junk that has been thrown together and probably won't last 100K miles.

the only way either company can save their collective asses are by laying
off as many UNION workers as they can, as fast as they can.

just my 2 ¢



"SnoMan" > wrote in message
news
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:35:01 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:
>
> >We are already seeing Detroit as we know it. Ford is getting rid of as
many
> >workers as they can.
> >
> >GM already did the same thing. Diamler-Chrysler is owned by a German
> >company.
> >
> >All three are in deep doo-doo.
> >
> >The people who make parts for GM, D-C and Ford are also in deep poop.
> >
> >Automaking had also changed drastically. The foreign brands already
employ
> >hundreds of thousands of people directly and indirectly.
> >
> >With the price of gas so high, the big 2 + D-C also have major problems,
> >because so many of their vehicles are trucks and their cars don't make
much
> >money.
> >
> >Detroit as we know it had changed already and will change again.
>
>
> Detriots biggest problem is labor costs. Approx 70% of the price of
> build a car at GM is for labor costs, not raw materials with health
> insurance along adding 1500 bucks to the average car price. If they
> cannot rein this in, they will fail because seeking cheaper part to
> ofset high labor costs is resulting on a lower quality product. They
> are getting into a big pickle and there is a showdown on the horizon
> between Detriot and Labor unions. Either the union will have to give
> in or they will go out of bussiness, no middle of the road possible.
> This will come to a head in next 3 or 4 years tops.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:40:24 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:

>> The idea is to sell enough cars to turn enough profit not to have to worry
>> about.
>> I am curious just how much do you think the average auto worker makes
>> working for FoMoCo, or General Motors once he/she is tenured. base salary
>> before over time, remember the assembly line workers are hourly, and I'll
>> let you in a clue, My wifes fater was 40 years GM, both her grandfathers,
>> numerous uncles and aunts, and I have a few in my family that have worked
>> for GM, .so no wild ass guesses or alligations of astronomical wealth
>> please.
>
>$60k plus a pension with health care after retiring


Yes me and my wife pay for a good part of our health insurance. UAW
workers do not know the hidden raise that they get every year just
because they do not pay for health insurance costs to speak of. They
are getting a big raise these days just to get the same wage and same
health care coverage as health insurance costs are skyrocketing but
since they do not pay it they do not realize that some years there 3
or 4% raise may in fact be 10 or 15%. Time to pay the piper. It is
coming. Time to trim the fat.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

"razz" > wrote in message
...
>
I am going to get ragged here but I don't care lol. I've owned a lot of
cars and trucks, fords, Chevy's, Pontiacs, 2 dodges. Owned 2 Smicas while
in Germany and a few VWs, got down on my luck in 84 and was given a datsun
510 sedan (the absolute worse car I have ever owned) I always take care of
what I own, I have driven many, make that most of them hard, but never put
them away wet if you know what I mean. The car I have the fondest memories
of is the one I tried my damnedest to kill, and it wouldn't die. The
absolute worst car ford built according to many, a 1973 Ford Pinto Wagon
with the 2.0 liter engine, bought used to be a beater, back and forth to
work, fishing, go to the junk yard beast of burden. I learned a lot in that
car, like you have to shift the automatic into second gear before you hit 43
mph or the pressure relief valve in the front pump opened and you had to
wait for the RPM to drop before it would re-engage. If you just tapped the
shifter into second at 41 mph and kept your foot on the floor, it would
pull the right front tire off the ground. I learned how to change a timing
belt in 28 minutes with hand tools. If you advanced the cam one tooth, it
was a bit doggy off the line but at about 1800 rpm it would feel like a
giant kicked it in the ass. Buy my third year driving it, two more of the
guys at work had bought similar, because they figured if I couldn't kill it,
it was a good ride for them. There were times I would leave the parking lot
from work so hard the tip of the 102" stainless steel whip antenna mounted
to the back bumper, with no spring mind you, would almost hit the pavement.
The few guys that drove jap used to rag on American iron bad, but they never
took me up on my offer, I would give them my Pinto for two weeks to drive as
if they were in their Toyota or Honda, and I would driver their car like I
drove the Pinto. No one ever took me up on that offer. At 265,000 miles I
retired it. The motor was still running pretty good, we were on the second
set of headers, and second carb. It had a roof rack that the previous
owner had packed bondo around the mounts to stop the leak, all that did is
speed the rot. I literally just pulled it off, sanded it down(the roof)
patched the holes with aluminum duct tape, a layer of fiberglass and then a
couple cans of rustoleum white paint lol. It slowed it down but the rust
was already spreading bad, car was 12 years old when I got it, but only had
80,000 on the odometer. It never let me down but one time, and that was a
dead battery. If the rust hadn't got to the floor boards, (mind you there
was no carpet in this thing lol) I had envisioned cutting the roof off,
narrowing a tailgate and wielding it in behind the seats, and then cutting a
second gate down to build a Pinchero, ditch the auto for a five speed and
rebuild the 2.0, cam it and four barrel, or two Weber side draft DCOE 45mm
carbs.

Whitelightning

"Delbert" > wrote in message
...
>I can remember when you could buy either a ford or GM for around 3500
>bucks,
> both were good trucks, built well and for the right price...then all of a
> sudden the workers wanted more money, and the price of the trucks doubled
> and what suffered the product. Now your paying 16 to 25 grand for a
> piece
> of junk that has been thrown together and probably won't last 100K miles.

I disagree. While they are expensive, they are usually well-built.

> the only way either company can save their collective asses are by laying
> off as many UNION workers as they can, as fast as they can.
>
> just my 2 ¢
>
>
>
> "SnoMan" > wrote in message
> news
>> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:35:01 GMT, "Jeff" > wrote:
>>
>> >We are already seeing Detroit as we know it. Ford is getting rid of as
> many
>> >workers as they can.
>> >
>> >GM already did the same thing. Diamler-Chrysler is owned by a German
>> >company.
>> >
>> >All three are in deep doo-doo.
>> >
>> >The people who make parts for GM, D-C and Ford are also in deep poop.
>> >
>> >Automaking had also changed drastically. The foreign brands already
> employ
>> >hundreds of thousands of people directly and indirectly.
>> >
>> >With the price of gas so high, the big 2 + D-C also have major problems,
>> >because so many of their vehicles are trucks and their cars don't make
> much
>> >money.
>> >
>> >Detroit as we know it had changed already and will change again.
>>
>>
>> Detriots biggest problem is labor costs. Approx 70% of the price of
>> build a car at GM is for labor costs, not raw materials with health
>> insurance along adding 1500 bucks to the average car price. If they
>> cannot rein this in, they will fail because seeking cheaper part to
>> ofset high labor costs is resulting on a lower quality product. They
>> are getting into a big pickle and there is a showdown on the horizon
>> between Detriot and Labor unions. Either the union will have to give
>> in or they will go out of bussiness, no middle of the road possible.
>> This will come to a head in next 3 or 4 years tops.
>> -----------------
>> TheSnoMan.com
>
>