Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards OR Defying the Laws of Physics

On Dec 30, 12:02*am, "V-for-Vendicar"
> wrote:
> > wrote
>
> > "The efficiency of an internal combustion engine is
> > based on total energy of the fuel and the amount of
> > energy used to perform useful work. So by
> > legislating a fuel efficiency increase of about 40%,
> > our Congress Critters were attempting to rewrite Laws
> > of Thermodynamics."
>
> Over 30 teams from the U.S., Canada, India and Bahrain participated in the
> SAE's annual mileage competition June 7-8, 2007 in Marshall, Michigan. The
> competition requires the development and construction of a single person,
> fuel efficient vehicle. All vehicles must be powered by a small four-cycle
> engine, have a minimum of three wheels, and the driver must be fully
> enclosed to prevent contact with the ground. The winner is based on a
> combination of best fuel economy and points from technical inspections of
> the vehicles. The 2006 winner, the University of British Columbia, achieved
> a record 3,145 miles per gallon!
>
> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/mostEfficient.shtml

Ten years or so ago, Top Gear had a bit about an Indian (nation, not
US bike) single cylinder Diesel MC of 500cc.
I wonder what that gets under normal conditions.

What Me Worry? wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> > What Me Worry? wrote:
> >
> >> When gasoline hits $10/gallon, the market for SUV's will approach
> >> zero,
> >
> > In Europe gasoline is already that price and 'SUVs' are still selling
> > well.
>
> Is Europe the United States?

It proves that '$10 gas' won't stop people using SUVs.


> >> while buyers for the 300MPG hybrids (ready for production right now)
> >> will be on a 2-year waiting list.
>
> > There is no 300 mpg hybrid.
>
> http://www.aptera.com/
>
> Better tell Aptera that their car doesn't exist. They're already selling
> 'em!
>
> > STOP LYING.
>
> Apologize for being a f*cking moron.

The Aptera isn't being manufactured at this time.

STOP LYING.

Graham

On Dec 30, 2:41*pm, "V-for-Vendicar"
> wrote:
> "Brent P" > wrote
>
> > I'm sorry you don't understand basic engineering, but there is no such
> > point to be made with that example. These SAE supermilage vehicles
> > represent nothing as far as hidden technology. They simply weigh very
> > little, minimize drag in all forms, and are run in such a manner to
> > maximize fuel economy on a perscribed course that has nothing to do with
> > real life transportation.
>
> * I see you got over the KKKonservative LIE that the new mileage regulations
> break the laws of thermodynamics.
>
> * Why do you think the Author of that KKKonservative propagana piece felt
> the need to lie?
>
> "Brent P" > wrote
>
> > I know you control freaks think that the only reason a honda civic
> > doesn't get 5,000mpg is a lack of motivational legislation, thing is
> > you're wrong. SAE supermilage competition has less to do with real life
> > driving than me commuting to work on my bicycle.
>
> * Such competitions illustrate what is possible within the laws of
> thermodynamics.
>
> * Now again. *Why do you think the Aurthor of that KKKonsevatvie Propaganda
> piece felt the need to lie?
>
> * You know. I have never encountered a KKKonservative who wasn't a perpetual
> liar.

I'm a middle-of-the-roader who thinks that you didn't add much useful
to this discussion, which is one of the best I've seen on a NG in
years. 'Tis a shame....

Scott in SoCal wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
>
> >It's easy to incorporate regenerative braking in electric trains by
> >returning the electricity generated to the supply. This is widely done in
> >Europe where many lines are electrified.
>
> It will no doubt inflate your sense of superiority even further to
> learn that the Chicago Transit Authority has recently ordered a new
> set of cars with precisely this type of regenerative braking
> capability.

What has this to do with any alleged sense of superiority ?

Graham

On Dec 30, 6:41*pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
> V-for-Vendicar wrote:
> > "Brent P" > wrote
>
> >>I'm sorry you don't understand basic engineering, but there is no such
> >>point to be made with that example. These SAE supermilage vehicles
> >>represent nothing as far as hidden technology. They simply weigh very
> >>little, minimize drag in all forms, and are run in such a manner to
> >>maximize fuel economy on a perscribed course that has nothing to do with
> >>real life transportation.
>
> > * I see you got over the KKKonservative LIE that the new mileage regulations
> > break the laws of thermodynamics.
>
> > * Why do you think the Author of that KKKonservative propagana piece felt
> > the need to lie?
>
> > "Brent P" > wrote
>
> >>I know you control freaks think that the only reason a honda civic
> >>doesn't get 5,000mpg is a lack of motivational legislation, thing is
> >>you're wrong. SAE supermilage competition has less to do with real life
> >>driving than me commuting to work on my bicycle.
>
> > * Such competitions illustrate what is possible within the laws of
> > thermodynamics.
>
> > * Now again. *Why do you think the Aurthor of that KKKonsevatvie Propaganda
> > piece felt the need to lie?
>
> > * You know. I have never encountered a KKKonservative who wasn't a perpetual
> > liar.
>
> I see that you're clearly an idiot. *Show me a four passenger vehicle,
> able to be produced and marketed today, that can come anywhere close to
> the SAE supermileage results. *I suspect that you will run into a hard
> wall with available technology somewhere before 100 MPG. *That doesn't
> even take into account light trucks, which are still necessary for many
> people (and I'm not referring to people who drive SUVs as cars, I'm
> talking about commercial users.)
>
> It's not so much that conservatives lie, it's that idiots like you give
> granola-munching hippies a bad name.
>
> The truth, of course, is that I can drive my 19 year old car for a
> decade or more on the energy it would take to produce any new car,
> efficient or not. *So this whole discussion is irrelevant to me anyway.
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've made a similiar retort when discussing removing less-than-ideal
"polluters" (classic cars') from the road.

In article > ,
"What Me Worry?" > wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > What Me Worry? wrote:
> >
> >> When gasoline hits $10/gallon, the market for SUV's will approach
> >> zero,
> >
> > In Europe gasoline is already that price and 'SUVs' are still selling
> > well.
>
> Is Europe the United States?
>
> >> while buyers for the 300MPG hybrids (ready for production right now)
> >> will be on a 2-year waiting list.
>
> > There is no 300 mpg hybrid.
>
> http://www.aptera.com/
>
> Better tell Aptera that their car doesn't exist. They're already selling
> 'em!

Aptera's car doesn't exist.

>
> > STOP LYING.
>
> Apologize for being a f*cking moron.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

On Dec 30, 3:09*pm, (Brent P)
wrote:
> In article >, V-for-Vendicar wrote:
> > * The KKKonservative claim was that such cars can't exist because they would
> > require a rewrite of the laws of thermodynamics.
>
> > * When were those thermodynamic laws rewritten to allow the 3,145 MPG car in
> > the above contest?
>
> As I tried to explain before, but I will try again even if it is likely
> hopless since you seem to be a new form of idiot who cannot even quote text
> properly.
>
> The vehicles in an SAE supermileage contest are NOT CARS in any sense that
> the public thinks of cars. They are best described as motorized bicycles.
> Get rid of the engine and it's pretty close to shape and form of the
> bicycles used to set human powered speed records. *
>
> Look for yourself:
>
> http://images.google.com/images?q=SAE+supermileage
>
> They are coffin sized!

Looks like a waste of time replying to him.

Scott in SoCal wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> >Scott in SoCal wrote:
> >> Eeyore wrote:
> >>
> >> >It's easy to incorporate regenerative braking in electric trains by
> >> >returning the electricity generated to the supply. This is widely done in
> >> >Europe where many lines are electrified.
> >>
> >> It will no doubt inflate your sense of superiority even further to
> >> learn that the Chicago Transit Authority has recently ordered a new
> >> set of cars with precisely this type of regenerative braking
> >> capability.
> >
> >What has this to do with my sense of superiority ?
>
> Because you oh-so-advanced Europeans deployed it before us backwards
> Americans did, of course.

This much is true.

Graham

Studemania wrote:
> On Dec 30, 9:10 am, Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>>Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
>>
>>>In News ,, Eeyore at
, typed this:
>>
>>>>Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
>>
>>>>>Eeyore typed this:
>>
>>>>>>Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>Eeyore at typed this:
>>
>>>>>>>>Kurt Lochner wrote:
>>
AKA sniveled ineptly:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
>>>>>>>>>>average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
>>>>>>>>>>and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
>>>>>>>>>>I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.
>>
>>>>>>>>I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
>>>>>>>>staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car
>>>>>>>>that could happily tootle along at 80-90mph, nip past obstructive
>>>>>>>>drivers in old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles
>>>>>>>>on a gallon of diesel.
>>>>>>>>http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
>>
>>>>>>>>OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
>>
>>>>>>>>Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an
>>>>>>>>irrational fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine
>>>>>>>>design is making even SPORTY diesels possible. They have
>>>>>>>>exceptional torque which most drivers like too.
>>
>>>>>>>How well do they operate at -30 degrees Fahrenheit?
>>
>>>>>>I have NO idea.
>>
>>>>>That's rather important for people living in my area.
>>
>>>>>>How well do YOU work at -30 F ( -34C) ?
>>
>>>>>Not well, which is why I need a reliable car at that temperature.
>>>>>In the past, Diesels have not proven reliable in the Winter.
>>
>>>>I've never experienced such temps but the Swedes for example use block
>>>>warmers. I imagine you can have a fuel tank warmer too.
>>
>>>>Graham
>>
>>>Why would I go to that problem and added energy expense/expenditure when I
>>>can just buy a reliable non-Diesel car?
>>
>>Because Graham is one of those arrogant Brits that has all the right
>>answers, and anyone that disagrees with him is an idiot.
>>
>>nate
>>
>>--
>>replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Hey, Nate.
>
> These aren't your dads Diesels.
> Also, gasoline engines can be more economical.
> This seems to be just a rehash of the crap that came out of detroit
> when CAFE came int exiastancde a couple of decades ago. Much of what
> is being said is just a re-hash of what I heard / read back then -
> before the went ahead and did what they said couldn't be done.
> How much HP does a car AC compresor use? Ever hear of a Servel fridge?
> They might adapt that system and save a bit during your hot summer.
> AFAIK, it's never been tried. How many untried ideas are floating
> around out there, waiting to be pulled out of the drawer?? KDH

I actually agree with you (and odd you should bring up the Servel
fridge, as I just got back from my grandma's place...) it's just
Graham's attitude that his way is the only right way that pushes my fur
backwards (and his refusal to accept that his solution isn't perfect for
everyone.)

I almost did buy a TDI a couple years ago, but I don't delude myself
enough to think that I could drive it up to Alaska, shut it off outside,
and come back and expect it to start.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Around 12/30/2007 11:18 PM, What Me Worry? wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What Me Worry? wrote:
>>
>>> while buyers for the 300MPG hybrids (ready for production right now)
>>> will be on a 2-year waiting list.
>
>> There is no 300 mpg hybrid.
>
> http://www.aptera.com/
>
> Better tell Aptera that their car doesn't exist.

Aptera is well aware that their car doesn't exist yet. From their FAQ:

*When are you starting production?
Our goal is to begin production in late 2008


Plus numerous references to what "will be" available features and
performance numbers "once we have begun production".

IOW, vaporware.


--
~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
--H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)