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Hesitation while accelerating Saturn SL1
I have a 1995 Saturn SL1, SOHC, manual transaxle, with
145,000 Km (much on the hwy). I do change the engine oil frequently 5000Km, check fluids often, etc. In the past two weeks, when accelerating, my car hesitates, it feels jumpy, or bucking/jerking. To resolve a recent stalling problem at deceleration and low rpm <2000rpm, I did the following: - changed fuel filter - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. -replace air filter I don't think it is a slipping clutch, because the clutch feels fine and grabs when I ease up on the clutch pedal when starting in 1st gear. Although I feel this bucking in gears 1, 2, 3, not so much in 4/5....typically at lower rpm < 2500 rpm 1500 - 2200 rpm. It could be the ... -EGR valve -ignition wires -cap and rotor -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) any suggestions? Thanks, Roger |
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In article
>, Roger Ehrlich - Alumni-2004 > wrote: > - changed fuel filter Good. > - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was > O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... Good. you might want to just remove and clean again to get EVERYTHING. It's 2 10mm bolts and unplugging the cables. Really easy, at least on the dual hamster models. > - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was > weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) Weird. > -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. Maybe it did something. I don't trust those things though. > -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. Ooooo. > -replace air filter Good too. > It could be the ... > -EGR valve Maybe. > -ignition wires *ding!* Change those first. I bet the problem goes away. Mine was like this too, i changed the wires - ran a LOT better. It just feels like it's missing or hesitating every now and then, randomly? or, at low RPM, as the RPM increases, it suddenly 'kicks in'? > -cap and rotor None - it's a DIS system. A coil per plug. > -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) No MAF. MAP is on the intake manifold. I'm not sure about the single hamster motors, but the two hamster ones have it to the left end of the manifold. > any suggestions? Replace the plug wires. Do it first. I bet it fixes it. |
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I experienced a hesitation while accelerating with my 1999 Saturn
SL1...then I started to notice a slight unusual sound. It ended up being the TIMING CHAIN. I got it replaced and that problem is over. Dunno if it's what you're problem is, but if it were, I would get it checked out. As you know, when that chain goes, so does your car. |
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In article
>, Roger Ehrlich - Alumni-2004 > wrote: > As Philip suggested I'll change the ignition wires to > see if that does the trick (however when I changed the spark plugs last > summer I did also measure the Resistance on the wires and they were > fine). Resistance measurements aren't really that useful, and if the wires are greater than 2 or 3 years old, they're suspect. At the really high volages that ignition systems work at, you can get interesting things even if the resistance checks OK, because the wire insulation could break down at high voltage, etc. I've seen it with TV sets a few times... |
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This matches the description as if you're driving on three cylinders,
intermittently, as most suspected. There's no safe way to check for spark on the plugs or plug wires on DIS for DYIs, but perhaps one. Hookup an induction timing light. At low rpm you can observe carefully the consistent or inconsistent sparks. After finding the inconsistent cylinder, swap the plugs and try again to rule out a bad plug. DO NOT LEAN on the car's earth. At the really high voltages that ignition systems work at, and for unknown reasons, you can get an interesting shock that you'll remember a lifetime. I had my share. > Thanks Philip & everyone > Ok here's some more observations.... > Yesterday I did remove the EGR valve and there was much carbon in the > valve and pipe. I used Carburator cleaner (sensor safe) to try & clean it. > The valve seems to move/close more freely thereafter. I also > replaced the PCV valve (FRAM PV295). > However as I drove > to work this morning and the car still felt like it was stumbling when > accelerating. When gearing up from 1st to 2 & 3 my car hesitates, it feels > jumpy, or stumbles with a lurching/bucking. My sense is that it > seems like the clutch plate is slipping. However this symptom does not occur > consistently. Sometimes it drives/feels very well. But when it happens it > always does under lower rpm (1600-2500), typically as I am gearing up and > accelerating with the gas pedal. I do not notice this under high rpm >3000 > rpm or when in gear 4 or 5 (maybe because of momentum). As I stated > before, I tested the clutch, easing up on the pedal into 1st gear from a > stationary position either on level ground or uphill, and the clutch does > grab. Then if I press the gas pedal once in gear sometimes the jerking > occurs. I cannot say that it appears to be a problem with the fuel pump. > It primes fine when I turn the key to ACC, and the engine does not seem to > sputter (like it's running out of gas). I'd suspect the clutch slipping if > it was consistent. As Philip suggested I'll change the ignition wires to > see if that does the trick (however when I changed the spark plugs last > summer I did also measure the Resistance on the wires and they were > fine). I would rather not spend money on changing the clutch plate or > fuel pump if it is not necessary as these are very expensive. > Thanks, Roger > In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0409241223250.7871-100000 > @elara.scs.ryerson.ca>, says... > > I have a 1995 Saturn SL1, SOHC, manual transaxle, with > > 145,000 Km (much on the hwy). I do change the engine oil frequently > > 5000Km, check fluids often, etc. In the past two > > weeks, when accelerating, my car hesitates, it feels jumpy, or > bucking/jerking. > > To resolve a recent stalling problem at deceleration and low rpm > <2000rpm, I did the following:> > > > - changed fuel filter > > - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was > > O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... > > - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was > > weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) > > -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. > > -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. > > -replace air filter > > I don't think it is a slipping clutch, because the clutch feels fine and > > grabs when I ease up on the clutch pedal when starting in 1st gear. > > Although I feel this bucking in gears 1, 2, 3, not so much in > > 4/5....typically at lower rpm < 2500 rpm 1500 - 2200 rpm. > > It could be the ... > > -EGR valve > > -ignition wires > > -cap and rotor > > -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) > > any suggestions? > > Thanks, Roger > Very good post. You covered a lot to eliminate a bunch of questions we > here might of had to go through. I kinda suspect the EGR. It may not be > closing off, at least not very well do to carbon. Btw Saturns never used > cap and rotors. > > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > > In article > > >, > > Roger Ehrlich - Alumni-2004 > wrote: > > > > > - changed fuel filter > > > > Good. > > > > > - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was > > > O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... > > > > Good. you might want to just remove and clean again to get EVERYTHING. > > It's 2 10mm bolts and unplugging the cables. Really easy, at least on > > the dual hamster models. > > > > > - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was > > > weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) > > > > Weird. > > > > > -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. > > > > Maybe it did something. I don't trust those things though. > > > > > -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. > > > > Ooooo. > > > > > -replace air filter > > > > Good too. > > > > > It could be the ... > > > -EGR valve > > > > Maybe. > > > > > -ignition wires > > > > *ding!* > > > > Change those first. I bet the problem goes away. Mine was like this > > too, i changed the wires - ran a LOT better. It just feels like it's > > missing or hesitating every now and then, randomly? or, at low RPM, as > > the RPM increases, it suddenly 'kicks in'? > > > > > -cap and rotor > > > > None - it's a DIS system. A coil per plug. > > > > > -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) > > > > No MAF. MAP is on the intake manifold. I'm not sure about the single > > hamster motors, but the two hamster ones have it to the left end of the > > manifold. > > > > > any suggestions? > > > > Replace the plug wires. Do it first. I bet it fixes it. |
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:07:34 -0400, Roger Ehrlich - Alumni-2004
> wrote: >Thanks Philip & everyone > >Ok here's some more observations.... > >Yesterday I did remove the EGR valve and there was much carbon in the >valve and pipe. I used Carburator cleaner (sensor safe) to try & clean it. >The valve seems to move/close more freely thereafter. I also >replaced the PCV valve (FRAM PV295). > >However as I drove >to work this morning and the car still felt like it was stumbling when >accelerating. When gearing up from 1st to 2 & 3 my car hesitates, it feels >jumpy, or stumbles with a lurching/bucking. My sense is that it >seems like the clutch plate is slipping. A severe, but positive test for clutch slippage: Put it in 3rd gear, aply the parking brake, and try to "take off". Let the clutch out while revving the engine. The engine should die, even before the clutch pedal is all the way up. An even more brutal (but still more positive test) is to rev the engine to above 3000 RPM, in third gear with the clutch pedal down, parking brake applied. Without modulating the throttle, slowly let out the clutch. It should slow and stall the engine, evenly and eventually. Any upward blips in the engine speed could mean a worn throwout bearing, or weak dampener springs in the clutch disk. More severe slippage will, of course, be more obvious. >However this symptom does not occur >consistently. Sometimes it drives/feels very well. But when it happens it >always does under lower rpm (1600-2500), typically as I am gearing up and >accelerating with the gas pedal. I do not notice this under high rpm >3000 >rpm or when in gear 4 or 5 (maybe because of momentum). As I stated >before, I tested the clutch, easing up on the pedal into 1st gear from a >stationary position either on level ground or uphill, and the clutch does >grab. Then if I press the gas pedal once in gear sometimes the jerking >occurs. I cannot say that it appears to be a problem with the fuel pump. >It primes fine when I turn the key to ACC, and the engine does not seem to >sputter (like it's running out of gas). I'd suspect the clutch slipping if >it was consistent. As Philip suggested I'll change the ignition wires to >see if that does the trick (however when I changed the spark plugs last >summer I did also measure the Resistance on the wires and they were >fine). I would rather not spend money on changing the clutch plate or >fuel pump if it is not necessary as these are very expensive. > >Thanks, Roger Sounds more like weak spark on one or more cyls. One or more coils are weak, or you have bad spark plug cables. Take the car into a dark (I mean pitch-black) garage, run the engine at fast idle, around 1800 RPM, and raise the hood. Look for any visible sparking, corona discharge... Ignition coils can also cause this symptom when they go bad. > >In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0409241223250.7871-100000 >, says... >> I have a 1995 Saturn SL1, SOHC, manual transaxle, with >> 145,000 Km (much on the hwy). I do change the engine oil frequently >> 5000Km, check fluids often, etc. In the past two >> weeks, when accelerating, my car hesitates, it feels jumpy, or >bucking/jerking. >> >> To resolve a recent stalling problem at deceleration and low rpm ><2000rpm, >> I did the following: >> >> - changed fuel filter >> - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was >> O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... >> - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was >> weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) >> -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. >> -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. >> -replace air filter >> >> I don't think it is a slipping clutch, because the clutch feels fine and >> grabs when I ease up on the clutch pedal when starting in 1st gear. >> Although I feel this bucking in gears 1, 2, 3, not so much in >> 4/5....typically at lower rpm < 2500 rpm 1500 - 2200 rpm. >> >> It could be the ... >> -EGR valve >> -ignition wires >> -cap and rotor >> -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) >> >> any suggestions? >> >> Thanks, Roger > > Very good post. You covered a lot to eliminate a bunch of questions we >here might of had to go through. I kinda suspect the EGR. It may not be >closing off, at least not very well do to carbon. Btw Saturns never used >cap and rotors. > > >On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Philip Nasadowski wrote: > >> In article >> >, >> Roger Ehrlich - Alumni-2004 > wrote: >> >> > - changed fuel filter >> >> Good. >> >> > - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was >> > O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... >> >> Good. you might want to just remove and clean again to get EVERYTHING. >> It's 2 10mm bolts and unplugging the cables. Really easy, at least on >> the dual hamster models. >> >> > - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was >> > weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) >> >> Weird. >> >> > -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. >> >> Maybe it did something. I don't trust those things though. >> >> > -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. >> >> Ooooo. >> >> > -replace air filter >> >> Good too. >> >> > It could be the ... >> > -EGR valve >> >> Maybe. >> >> > -ignition wires >> >> *ding!* >> >> Change those first. I bet the problem goes away. Mine was like this >> too, i changed the wires - ran a LOT better. It just feels like it's >> missing or hesitating every now and then, randomly? or, at low RPM, as >> the RPM increases, it suddenly 'kicks in'? >> >> > -cap and rotor >> >> None - it's a DIS system. A coil per plug. >> >> > -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) >> >> No MAF. MAP is on the intake manifold. I'm not sure about the single >> hamster motors, but the two hamster ones have it to the left end of the >> manifold. >> >> > any suggestions? >> >> Replace the plug wires. Do it first. I bet it fixes it. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info |
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Thanks everyone. But about the spark plug cables.....
I have noticed that the wire on cylinder 4 has a defective connector to the plug itself, sometimes it does pop off....I have used pliers to try and close the mating connector so that it is tighter. But I still suspect it...so I'll get new cables (Niehoff brand - a-ok? good brand? I don't need high performance cables, this car is a 1.9 L SOHC afterall ...) A ? though, Would a misfiring plug feel different to the driver though? I feel the car lurching as if it lost power momentarily... and this happens only as I am gearing up, on level ground and up/downhill (any load to the wheels). I notice it more when gearing up from 1 to 2 to 3. Sometimes the car drives well though. I would think if a plug was misfiring the vibration would be more from the engine itself. Considering the trouble I had previously with lower rpm stalls, maybe I did not fully clean all the carbon from the EGR valve (carb clnr). I did the best I could with the EGR though. Maybe I should replace it also????? On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, ~^Johnny^~ wrote: > >Yesterday I did remove the EGR valve and there was much carbon in the > >valve and pipe. I used Carburator cleaner (sensor safe) to try & clean it. > >The valve seems to move/close more freely thereafter. I also > >replaced the PCV valve (FRAM PV295). > > > >However as I drove > >to work this morning and the car still felt like it was stumbling when > >accelerating. When gearing up from 1st to 2 & 3 my car hesitates, it feels > >jumpy, or stumbles with a lurching/bucking. My sense is that it > >seems like the clutch plate is slipping. > > >However this symptom does not occur > >consistently. Sometimes it drives/feels very well. But when it happens it > >always does under lower rpm (1600-2500), typically as I am gearing up and > >accelerating with the gas pedal. I do not notice this under high rpm >3000 > >rpm or when in gear 4 or 5 (maybe because of momentum). As I stated > >before, I tested the clutch, easing up on the pedal into 1st gear from a > >stationary position either on level ground or uphill, and the clutch does > >grab. Then if I press the gas pedal once in gear sometimes the jerking > >occurs. I cannot say that it appears to be a problem with the fuel pump. > >It primes fine when I turn the key to ACC, and the engine does not seem to > >sputter (like it's running out of gas). I'd suspect the clutch slipping if > >it was consistent. As Philip suggested I'll change the ignition wires to > >see if that does the trick (however when I changed the spark plugs last > >summer I did also measure the Resistance on the wires and they were > >fine). I would rather not spend money on changing the clutch plate or > >fuel pump if it is not necessary as these are very expensive. > > > >Thanks, Roger > > Sounds more like weak spark on one or more cyls. > One or more coils are weak, or you have bad spark plug cables. > > Take the car into a dark (I mean pitch-black) garage, run the engine at fast > idle, around 1800 RPM, and raise the hood. Look for any visible sparking, > corona discharge... > > Ignition coils can also cause this symptom when they go bad. > > > > > > > > >In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0409241223250.7871-100000 > >, says... > >> I have a 1995 Saturn SL1, SOHC, manual transaxle, with > >> 145,000 Km (much on the hwy). I do change the engine oil frequently > >> 5000Km, check fluids often, etc. In the past two > >> weeks, when accelerating, my car hesitates, it feels jumpy, or > >bucking/jerking. > >> > >> To resolve a recent stalling problem at deceleration and low rpm > ><2000rpm, > >> I did the following: > >> > >> - changed fuel filter > >> - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was > >> O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... > >> - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was > >> weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) > >> -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. > >> -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. > >> -replace air filter > >> > >> I don't think it is a slipping clutch, because the clutch feels fine and > >> grabs when I ease up on the clutch pedal when starting in 1st gear. > >> Although I feel this bucking in gears 1, 2, 3, not so much in > >> 4/5....typically at lower rpm < 2500 rpm 1500 - 2200 rpm. > >> > >> It could be the ... > >> -EGR valve > >> -ignition wires > >> -cap and rotor > >> -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) > >> > >> any suggestions? > >> > >> Thanks, Roger > > > > Very good post. You covered a lot to eliminate a bunch of questions we > >here might of had to go through. I kinda suspect the EGR. It may not be > >closing off, at least not very well do to carbon. Btw Saturns never used > >cap and rotors. > > > > > >On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > > >> In article > >> >, > >> Roger Ehrlich - Alumni-2004 > wrote: > >> > >> > - changed fuel filter > >> > >> Good. > >> > >> > - cleaned carbon out of throttle body with carb cleaner (was > >> > O2 sensor safe), and there was alot of carbon... > >> > >> Good. you might want to just remove and clean again to get EVERYTHING. > >> It's 2 10mm bolts and unplugging the cables. Really easy, at least on > >> the dual hamster models. > >> > >> > - replaced vacuum hose between throttle body and crank case, old one was > >> > weak & almost ready to collapse. (fuel/PCV line hose 11/32" ID, 50 PSI) > >> > >> Weird. > >> > >> > -used STP concentrated fuel injector cleaner in gas tank. > >> > >> Maybe it did something. I don't trust those things though. > >> > >> > -spark plugs were gapped & changed last summer. > >> > >> Ooooo. > >> > >> > -replace air filter > >> > >> Good too. > >> > >> > It could be the ... > >> > -EGR valve > >> > >> Maybe. > >> > >> > -ignition wires > >> > >> *ding!* > >> > >> Change those first. I bet the problem goes away. Mine was like this > >> too, i changed the wires - ran a LOT better. It just feels like it's > >> missing or hesitating every now and then, randomly? or, at low RPM, as > >> the RPM increases, it suddenly 'kicks in'? > >> > >> > -cap and rotor > >> > >> None - it's a DIS system. A coil per plug. > >> > >> > -MAF/MAP sensor (where are these located?) > >> > >> No MAF. MAP is on the intake manifold. I'm not sure about the single > >> hamster motors, but the two hamster ones have it to the left end of the > >> manifold. > >> > >> > any suggestions? > >> > >> Replace the plug wires. Do it first. I bet it fixes it. > > -- Roger Ehrlich Computer Science Ryerson University, Toronto, Canada ** "It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot, irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it." Jacob Bronowski, The Ascent of Man "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams |
#10
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I have a 1997 Saturn SL1. Two weeks after buying it used in 2000 I had
a terrible missfire. Got home, found a bad spark plug wire, change them out and everything was okay for 3 years. Then about a year ago I had the miss-fire with moderate throttle. I changed the plug and wires and all was okay again until about 6 months ago. The car is fine when cold for about 5 minutes and then starts to buck, if I go lightly on the throttle it smooths out again. Since I don't drive it too far I have been living with it for several months. You know accelerate briskly and then back way off on the gas and it is okay. I have changed the plug wires and plugs (NKG) and still no good. Cleaned the EGR, throttle body with no luck. Upgraded from new stock wires to Accell 8MM and bosch platimum plugs. Still no good. I have a code reader and intermittently it pulls the code (forget the number, think for crank sensor) for the sensor my SL1 does not have. I tried reducing the spark plug gap from 40 to 32, still no good. I have a timing light and one interesting thing is that I get a good signal at idle but the timing light goes intermitent and even stops flashing for lenghty periods at higher rpms. (Checked my other vehicle and the strobe flashes at all engine speeds. Next I put a plug wire on a plug resting on the engine block and the spark is indeed there at all speeds. Guess just too week for the stobe pick-up. Last thing I tried yesterday evening was to open the spark gap to 45 thou. This morning was the first time my car has not jerked and hesitated on the way to work in months. It did do some minor bucking on the way home but the wife says it was okay for her tonight. Crossing my fingers on this one as I need to get GOVN't emmissions test soon. |
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