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Tires that actually last



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 19th 20, 07:05 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 40
Default Tires that actually last

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:20:42 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> IMO, mileage estimates seem to be for straight line, 50 mph, constant
> temp and load.


While the manufacturer stamps the tires with the treadwear indicator, they
do so following an exacting driving procedure handed to them (AFAIK) by the
DOT and/or the NHTSA to be run always on a specific San Angelo TX test
course always with a specific driving pattern for all tires being tested.

Let me dig that test track information up...
o <https://one.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP-UTQG-W-01.pdf>

That document is labeled "TP-UTQG-W-01" US DOT NHTSA
o "Procedures for tire treadwear testing"

Skimming that document there is a Test Program Overview at section 1-12.
"The tires will then be labeled, inspected, mounted onto rims,
balanced and then placed onto the test vehicle. The test vehicle will be
ballasted to achieve the required loading of the tires. The vehicles
will be driven over the established 400 mile course utilizing the
prescribed driving technique for a total of 7,200 miles. After each 800
miles, the tire pressure and tire depth will be measured, the tire
position will be rotated, and the vehicle's front end alignment will be
adjusted when required. At the completion of the test the wear rates of
each tire will be calculated."

And here is a course overview at section 5-12:
"The course consists of 3 loops as follows:
1. Southern Loop
2. Eastern Loop
3. Northwestern Loop

I had originally thought it was a test 'track' but skimming the document
shows it's actually real roads and intersections such as STOP at FM388 for
the Calibrated Mile and U-Turn at the Camp Hudson Historical Marker, and
then drive on US277 for 88 miles, then drive on Sonora Road for 214 miles,
and stop at FM388 & FM2334, etc.

There's a map of the three loops which looks like a bow tie around a
Christmas present, where the southern end is just a bendy ribbon while the
two northern ends are both clearly large loops.

Anyway, my quick summary from a quick skim is that it's on "regular" roads
in Texas, where it's regular driving (they even tell the driver what the
braking & yield procedures are in the document).

When they check treadwear, they check it at 6 marked locations, starting at
the DOT number avoiding treadwear indicator bars.

It's not all straight but it's not all curves either.
o It sure does seem like it's seven thousand miles of "normal driving",
albeit I live on a mountain so none of that is covered in this test.

See also:
o Does the macadem road surface have a great effect on tire wear?
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/ZwIeZHNCzpI>
o Questions about mounting & balancing new LT tires on new steel rims at home (match mounting marks, red dots, yellow dots, & spacers)
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/gjsqxRxTacw>
o Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/ST-xNgC5pnU>
o Just mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years - saving over $400
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/zfyOpil5bck>
o Can you return a tire you don't like for full refund?
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/5htRVubIoW8>
o What metric do you use to estimate remaining brake pad life on a typical economy sedan?
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/C2VH6EvL2As>
--
Posted, as always, out of the goodness of my heart, in order to help.
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  #12  
Old December 19th 20, 07:09 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 40
Default Tires that actually last

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 10:57:13 +1100, Xeno wrote:

> What? At 15K miles? One rotate at most at that mileage, if that.


Hi Xeno,

As you know, I only get about 20K miles per tire, particularly if I don't
rotate them every 5K miles and _flip_ them on the rim every 10K miles.

But my driving (as is the driving of all my neighbors) is considered
extreme, due to the high temporary camber on the inside front tire on the
downhill side (as you're well aware of).

Given these extreme conditions, I rotate at no later than 5K, and I should
probably rotate even sooner, as I should probably flip them on the rims
about every 5K instead of every 10K.
  #13  
Old December 19th 20, 08:39 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
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Posts: 201
Default Tires that actually last

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:20:42 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>
>> IMO, mileage estimates seem to be for straight line, 50 mph, constant
>> temp and load.

>
> While the manufacturer stamps the tires with the treadwear indicator, they
> do so following an exacting driving procedure handed to them (AFAIK) by the
> DOT and/or the NHTSA to be run always on a specific San Angelo TX test
> course always with a specific driving pattern for all tires being tested.
>
> Let me dig that test track information up...
> o <https://one.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP-UTQG-W-01.pdf>
>
> That document is labeled "TP-UTQG-W-01" US DOT NHTSA
> o "Procedures for tire treadwear testing"


Thank you for all the links. The test track info was interesting to me
in that I have driven all those routes several times. About the only
tire hazard there is the occasional armadillo.
  #14  
Old December 19th 20, 09:41 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 40
Default Tires that actually last

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 13:39:52 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> Thank you for all the links. The test track info was interesting to me
> in that I have driven all those routes several times. About the only
> tire hazard there is the occasional armadillo.


Hi Paul,

Given you've seen those roads, would you call them part of a "normal"
driving regimen?

(i.e., fast, slow, stop, go, turn left, uturn, turn right, brake, etc.)
  #15  
Old December 20th 20, 05:31 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
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Posts: 201
Default Tires that actually last

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 13:39:52 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>
>> Thank you for all the links. The test track info was interesting to me
>> in that I have driven all those routes several times. About the only
>> tire hazard there is the occasional armadillo.

>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Given you've seen those roads, would you call them part of a "normal"
> driving regimen?
>
> (i.e., fast, slow, stop, go, turn left, uturn, turn right, brake, etc.)


I would consider the test loops to be normal driving conditions for
central west Texas only. All of the test routes are rural and San
Angelo is a small town. Rural roads in Texas are usually in superb
condition without potholes and are essentially flat with long sweeping
curves. Its easy to go 100+ mph for long distances. The bad part of
the test loops is the summer temperature. 115F air temp in the shade at
5' above grade in the summer and 150+F on the roadway. I used to live
and work in the area.
There is no comparison to Houston's bumper to bumper traffic with
corresponding slamming on the brakes, making sharp turns, and running
over road debris. If the test loops predict 50k miles usage from a tire
then I'd probably half that for Houston, or 25k miles. However, the
test loops would be good for a comparison / ratio between tires instead
of using for a discrete number.
  #16  
Old December 20th 20, 09:55 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 40
Default Tires that actually last

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 22:31:56 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> There is no comparison to Houston's bumper to bumper traffic with
> corresponding slamming on the brakes, making sharp turns, and running
> over road debris


Thanks for answering the question, as my only other option was to use
Google Maps Street View, but I prefer your answer, which I accept.

Given that the test loop is only somewhat realistic (at least it's run on
real roads instead of on a track), I suspect most of us will _not_ get the
mileage stamped on the tire carcass itself (i.e., the TREADWEAR rating).

Of course, miles are _never_ directly stated on the sidewall - they're just
numbers like 100 or 200 or 300, etc., but we care about miles, so I try to
convert the 100 to about 10,000 miles, the 200 to about 20,000 miles, etc.

Me?
o I get 400 TREADWEAR tires and they last about 20K miles

But I drive in what Xeno would agree as "extreme conditions", in that I'm
miles up on a mountain road, so the camber scrub of the inside tire's
outside corner is immense and visible within 100 miles (I've posted photos
of that in the other threads I cited).

The only times miles are "stated" is in the warranty, which, I've found out
the hard way, is almost impossible to make any use of due to the conditions
they specify in the warranty costing more than the price of the tire.
--
Posted as an exchange of dialog about items of knowledge & experience.
 




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